5 ms·

If you actually look at the data though, the railways are actually better. They're more likely to be on time, and have higher customer satisfaction.

by UK-AL 10y ago

crdoconnor 10y ago
Yes, when you ask people "and how are things apart from the eye watering, wallet haemorrhaging, income annihilating cost?" they're mildly positive about the railways. Mildly.
- UK-AL 10y ago
  Thats because that what it costs to get it up scratch. Taxes distribute the burden across everyone, and can be politically hard to get through. Privatization puts the burden on the people who use it.
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    Check your facts. They were and still are massively subsidized. Supplying the profit margins of the train operating companies were made the burden of people who use it.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Actually, British passengers seem to be the second-most happy railway users within EU. [0] I'm from the happiest country of railway users (Finland), and I can tell you that also here, lots of people complain about the national railway service, both about reliability, speed and price. ([1] is a joke on announcements of VR, the train operator, about four seasonal outages in train service due to spring, summer, autumns and winter (clockwise).) And the (government-owned) railway company here offers train travel that is more expensive than in Britain (just checked my most recent trip, 37 € is the cheapest fare for a 250 km distance that is equivalent to London-Manchester). [0] http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_382a_sum_en.pdf http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_382a_sum_en.pdf [1] http://www.riemurasia.net/kuva/Juna-kulkee/176387 http://www.riemurasia.net/kuva/Juna-kulkee/176387
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    The words "price" and "cost" do not appear once in the cited document on public opinion about national railway services. Do you not wonder why they didn't ask?
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      Nor did you point us to actual data on the prices. There is a quick comparison: http://budgettraveller.org/uk-trains-cheap/ http://budgettraveller.org/uk-trains-cheap/ And a more thorough one, but a bit old (2009): http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.net/migrated/fares__ticketing_study_1_report_.pdf http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.net/migrated/fares__ticketi... The point with UK train travel is that 1) commuting to London is expensive (not that surprising considering how congested it is) and 2) if you book in advance, travel is cheaper than in comparable European countries. If you purchase ticket in the train, it is more expensive.
      - crdoconnor 10y ago
        >Nor did you point us to actual data on the prices. I live it. Take it from me: the fact that somebody could try and judge how people felt about our train service and "forget" to ask about prices is kind of like hearing somebody say that Guantanamo is not so bad because the weather's nice. I don't even travel on trains much these days because it's so expensive - I check on the odd occasion but I usually I go by coach, horrible though it is. The dominant coach operating company has recognized this and bumped up their prices too. >There is a quick comparison This quick comparison points out that if you are willing to travel when nobody else is travelling you can fix your travel plans twelve weeks in advance then you can get a fare I would describe as "sort of reasonable". If you do the same kind of wrangling to get a flight you can end up flying half way across europe for 10 pounds. That 19 pound ticket to the airport still isn't exactly cheap, it's just not, well... You might note that author of that article used the exact same phrase I did to describe prices the rest of the time: eye watering. The best part is that many of those "cheap fares" are only there because the regulators force the operating companies to show them (they would be gone in an instant if there weren't a legal requirement for them to exist) and they are often very well concealed and useless for most people's needs. If privatization weren't being kept on a very, very, very long leash it might be even worse. >The point with UK train travel is that Is that it is privatized and the rail operating companies are ripping us off blind. End of story. >if you book in advance You can get a flight for 10 pounds and still end up spending twice that on your train to the airport, booked just as far in advance. Yay?

If you actually look at the data though, the railways are actually better. They're more likely to be on time, and have higher customer satisfaction.

by UK-AL 10y ago

If you actually look at the data though, the railways are actually better. They're more likely to be on time, and have higher customer satisfaction.

crdoconnor 10y ago

Yes, when you ask people "and how are things apart from the eye watering, wallet haemorrhaging, income annihilating cost?" they're mildly positive about the railways. Mildly.

UK-AL 10y ago
Thats because that what it costs to get it up scratch. Taxes distribute the burden across everyone, and can be politically hard to get through. Privatization puts the burden on the people who use it.
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  Check your facts. They were and still are massively subsidized. Supplying the profit margins of the train operating companies were made the burden of people who use it.
ptaipale 10y ago
Actually, British passengers seem to be the second-most happy railway users within EU. [0] I'm from the happiest country of railway users (Finland), and I can tell you that also here, lots of people complain about the national railway service, both about reliability, speed and price. ([1] is a joke on announcements of VR, the train operator, about four seasonal outages in train service due to spring, summer, autumns and winter (clockwise).) And the (government-owned) railway company here offers train travel that is more expensive than in Britain (just checked my most recent trip, 37 € is the cheapest fare for a 250 km distance that is equivalent to London-Manchester). [0] http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_382a_sum_en.pdf http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_382a_sum_en.pdf [1] http://www.riemurasia.net/kuva/Juna-kulkee/176387 http://www.riemurasia.net/kuva/Juna-kulkee/176387
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  The words "price" and "cost" do not appear once in the cited document on public opinion about national railway services. Do you not wonder why they didn't ask?
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    Nor did you point us to actual data on the prices. There is a quick comparison: http://budgettraveller.org/uk-trains-cheap/ http://budgettraveller.org/uk-trains-cheap/ And a more thorough one, but a bit old (2009): http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.net/migrated/fares__ticketing_study_1_report_.pdf http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.net/migrated/fares__ticketi... The point with UK train travel is that 1) commuting to London is expensive (not that surprising considering how congested it is) and 2) if you book in advance, travel is cheaper than in comparable European countries. If you purchase ticket in the train, it is more expensive.
    - crdoconnor 10y ago
      >Nor did you point us to actual data on the prices. I live it. Take it from me: the fact that somebody could try and judge how people felt about our train service and "forget" to ask about prices is kind of like hearing somebody say that Guantanamo is not so bad because the weather's nice. I don't even travel on trains much these days because it's so expensive - I check on the odd occasion but I usually I go by coach, horrible though it is. The dominant coach operating company has recognized this and bumped up their prices too. >There is a quick comparison This quick comparison points out that if you are willing to travel when nobody else is travelling you can fix your travel plans twelve weeks in advance then you can get a fare I would describe as "sort of reasonable". If you do the same kind of wrangling to get a flight you can end up flying half way across europe for 10 pounds. That 19 pound ticket to the airport still isn't exactly cheap, it's just not, well... You might note that author of that article used the exact same phrase I did to describe prices the rest of the time: eye watering. The best part is that many of those "cheap fares" are only there because the regulators force the operating companies to show them (they would be gone in an instant if there weren't a legal requirement for them to exist) and they are often very well concealed and useless for most people's needs. If privatization weren't being kept on a very, very, very long leash it might be even worse. >The point with UK train travel is that Is that it is privatized and the rail operating companies are ripping us off blind. End of story. >if you book in advance You can get a flight for 10 pounds and still end up spending twice that on your train to the airport, booked just as far in advance. Yay?