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I do admire all the ambition. But does it really have to be mixed in with views such as "Democracy only works in a growing economy. Without a return to economic

by n72 10y ago

I do admire all the ambition. But does it really have to be mixed in with views such as "Democracy only works in a growing economy. Without a return to economic growth, the democratic experiment will fail. And I have to think that YC is hugely important to that growth." I'm sure Sam (and other SV types) is well aware of the complexity of reality and that YC, as one company, cannot be hugely important to that growth. In other words, if YC simply stopped functioning tomorrow, I can't imagine the GDP growth of the United States would be at all affected. Guys, what you're doing is very, very impressive, but, c'mon, let's get off the idea that you're instrumental in saving democracy for all of us (and all the other delusions of grandeur).

greenleafjacob 10y ago
Not currently at least.
smoyer 10y ago
And if you think about it, most of these disruptive companies are not offering real growth. Both Über and Air BNB, for instance are diverting dollars from the legacy provider. And they're doing this by offering better service and/or lower prices. There is no value creation to see here.
- patrickk 10y ago
  Well they are funding very ambitious stuff like nuclear power startups and AI initiatives, which most others usually shy away from. This is potentially extremely disruptive and a massive boon to the economy. And your assessment of Airbnb of just "diverting dollars from the legacy provider" is wrong in my opinion, it turns an unused space into cash (creating a new market/enabling an underserved market), just like early-eBay turned unwanted stuff in your house into cash. I'm not fully sure where I stand on Uber, but they're certainly offering a much better customer experience than traditional taxis.
  - smoyer 10y ago
    AirBNB turns my unused space into cash but also keeps me from staying at a hotel. These businesses are certainly adding value for their shareholders and customers. They are not generally expanding the economy. I should also admit that many existing business models should be disrupted.
    - patrickk 10y ago
      It doesn't keep you from staying at a hotel, that's a choice you make. Also, I've stayed at AirBnb locations where there was no other accommodations options, so it's difficult to argue it's taking business from a hotel in these scenarios. Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if bigger hotel chains legally evade loads of tax like virtually all large multinational companies do, which isn't an option for most AirBnb hosts, who must pay full tax on everything (or face the consequences, e.g. the situation in New York).
      - smoyer 10y ago
        "keeps" was a poor word choice. I've never stayed at an AirBNB (or VRBO, etc) on the same night I also stayed at a hotel, so if I choose one, then the other (in general) isn't getting my business. Reading the rest of your comment, I don't really think we disagree except that you seem to think AirBNB is driving additional revenue into the economy ("Also, I've stayed at AirBnb locations where there was no other accommodations options") - before AirBNB was there, what would you have done? You would have either stayed at a hotel that was further away than you'd like, or stayed home. The consumer is definitely winning though.
- hyko 10y ago
  Lowering prices and improving goods and services are the only ways of creating value?
- sulam 10y ago
  Think what you will about Uber and AirBnb (I happen to dislike Uber as a tech employer) -- they are certainly offering real growth. I have used Uber (and Lyft) and Airbnb (and VRBO/HomeAway) to do things that I otherwise wouldn't have done. In other words, rides I wouldn't have called a taxi for, and trips I wouldn't have taken because I find the typical hotel experience to be more trouble than it's worth with two small children. I think you should also consider the utilization side of things -- people are getting value out of a depreciating asset that would otherwise be unutilized. Simply from an account perspective this is valuable (and probably more economically valuable than helping support rent-seeking medallion owners). The Freakonomics podcast had a really good economic justification for Uber specifically that goes beyond what I've described here. It's worth listening to (and I can't seem to link to it directly: http://www.npr.org/podcasts/452538045/freakonomics-radio http://www.npr.org/podcasts/452538045/freakonomics-radio -- September 7th).
vinayak147 10y ago
Connecting our day to day efforts to a larger unifying purpose is a powerful driver of change and an essential leadership skill. I believe Sam is better at making such connections than most people I know.
- n72 10y ago
  That's great (though it can be an employment dark pattern, as it were), but that's not what's going on here. Sam isn't saying, hey, I think a healthy startup ecosystem contributes to a healthy economy which contributes to a healthy democracy. No, he's saying something far more grandiose.

by n72 10y ago

greenleafjacob 10y ago

Not currently at least.

smoyer 10y ago

And if you think about it, most of these disruptive companies are not offering real growth. Both Über and Air BNB, for instance are diverting dollars from the legacy provider. And they're doing this by offering better service and/or lower prices. There is no value creation to see here.

patrickk 10y ago
Well they are funding very ambitious stuff like nuclear power startups and AI initiatives, which most others usually shy away from. This is potentially extremely disruptive and a massive boon to the economy. And your assessment of Airbnb of just "diverting dollars from the legacy provider" is wrong in my opinion, it turns an unused space into cash (creating a new market/enabling an underserved market), just like early-eBay turned unwanted stuff in your house into cash. I'm not fully sure where I stand on Uber, but they're certainly offering a much better customer experience than traditional taxis.
- smoyer 10y ago
  AirBNB turns my unused space into cash but also keeps me from staying at a hotel. These businesses are certainly adding value for their shareholders and customers. They are not generally expanding the economy. I should also admit that many existing business models should be disrupted.
  - patrickk 10y ago
    It doesn't keep you from staying at a hotel, that's a choice you make. Also, I've stayed at AirBnb locations where there was no other accommodations options, so it's difficult to argue it's taking business from a hotel in these scenarios. Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if bigger hotel chains legally evade loads of tax like virtually all large multinational companies do, which isn't an option for most AirBnb hosts, who must pay full tax on everything (or face the consequences, e.g. the situation in New York).
    - smoyer 10y ago
      "keeps" was a poor word choice. I've never stayed at an AirBNB (or VRBO, etc) on the same night I also stayed at a hotel, so if I choose one, then the other (in general) isn't getting my business. Reading the rest of your comment, I don't really think we disagree except that you seem to think AirBNB is driving additional revenue into the economy ("Also, I've stayed at AirBnb locations where there was no other accommodations options") - before AirBNB was there, what would you have done? You would have either stayed at a hotel that was further away than you'd like, or stayed home. The consumer is definitely winning though.
hyko 10y ago
Lowering prices and improving goods and services are the only ways of creating value?
sulam 10y ago
Think what you will about Uber and AirBnb (I happen to dislike Uber as a tech employer) -- they are certainly offering real growth. I have used Uber (and Lyft) and Airbnb (and VRBO/HomeAway) to do things that I otherwise wouldn't have done. In other words, rides I wouldn't have called a taxi for, and trips I wouldn't have taken because I find the typical hotel experience to be more trouble than it's worth with two small children. I think you should also consider the utilization side of things -- people are getting value out of a depreciating asset that would otherwise be unutilized. Simply from an account perspective this is valuable (and probably more economically valuable than helping support rent-seeking medallion owners). The Freakonomics podcast had a really good economic justification for Uber specifically that goes beyond what I've described here. It's worth listening to (and I can't seem to link to it directly: http://www.npr.org/podcasts/452538045/freakonomics-radio http://www.npr.org/podcasts/452538045/freakonomics-radio -- September 7th).

vinayak147 10y ago

Connecting our day to day efforts to a larger unifying purpose is a powerful driver of change and an essential leadership skill. I believe Sam is better at making such connections than most people I know.

n72 10y ago
That's great (though it can be an employment dark pattern, as it were), but that's not what's going on here. Sam isn't saying, hey, I think a healthy startup ecosystem contributes to a healthy economy which contributes to a healthy democracy. No, he's saying something far more grandiose.