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Isn't the answer to this the same as the answer to Jung's hypothesis? > “Myths are first and foremost psychic phenomena that reveal the nature of the soul,” Ju

Isn't the answer to this the same as the answer to Jung's hypothesis? > “Myths are first and foremost psychic phenomena that reveal the nature of the soul,” Jung argued. But the dissemination of Cosmic Hunt stories around the world cannot be explained by a universal psychic structure. If that were the case, Cosmic Hunt stories would pop up everywhere. Instead they are nearly absent in Indonesia and New Guinea and very rare in Australia but present on both sides of the Bering Strait, which geologic and archaeological evidence indicates was above water between 28,000 and 13,000 B.C. (So, the absence of Cosmic Hunt stories in New Guinea, Indonesia, and Australia would seem to be a counter to your hypothesis, unless for some reason we could explain why people in those regions thought less about stars and hunting.)

aaron695 10y ago
"very rare" "nearly absent" does acknowledge that they do exist though. So we know at least they will spontaneously appear. And if it's a good meme why didn't it spread? The stars are a huge part of any lore. Hunting is a huge part of a mans life (Along with women) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_astronomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_astronom...
- lgessler 10y ago
  I don't think that's a good counterargument--there are hundreds and probably thousands of data points in those regions. Using a simplistic metaphor, what are the odds that when all the cultures in the world rolled the dice to decide whether they'd have a Cosmic Hunter myth almost all of the ones in Australia, Indonesia, and Papua New Guinea rolled not to? Vanishingly small.
  - aaron695 10y ago
    I don't know. Stories like this sound pretty close to me - http://members.optusnet.com.au/virgothomas/space/abobeliefs2.html http://members.optusnet.com.au/virgothomas/space/abobeliefs2... (Two Brothers & The Pointer Stars) All primitive societies obviously have stories of the stars being people and animals. Men were hunters, the animals will be game. Finding a exact narrative the fits your model from thousands of data points feels possible to me. [edit] From the authors paper read "What about the Saharan versions of Cosmic Hunt" and tell me they are not just making stuff up
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >From the authors paper read "What about the Saharan versions of Cosmic Hunt" and tell me they are not just making stuff up What about it seems as if they are "making stuff up"? They summarize several versions of some such stories, with differentiating details, and even give the papers and studies where they were collected by anthropologists, etc.
noname123 10y ago
>the absence of Cosmic Hunt stories in New Guinea, Indonesia, and Australia would seem to be a counter to your hypothesis, Following the genetics metaphor, the distinctiveness of the myth story in that region of the world is due to the isolation of the Australian continent that doesn't allow for a free-flow of genetic information from the rest of the world and therefore shows a loss of "cultural variation" because only a few "founders" whose consciousness at the time of their progeniting is not representative of the diversity of the global human consciousness. (Founder effect, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect) Applying Biology/genetics as a metaphor for the transmission of human culture and ideas is actually an very dangerous and subversive idea, for instance, following this logic, the most popular religion or dominant culture is not necessarily the most useful to the host genome, but the best viral "meme" that can replicate itself while balancing its own replication vs. the viability of the host (e.g., a malaria that allowed the host and its transmission vector to slightly evolve partial defenses against it so that it too can survive and replicate or the benign Herpes simplex virus that has 90% penetration rate). Human culture/consciousness has lots of garbage, "non-coding" regions that a virus can replicate its repeat sequences onto the collective consciousness like say Kim Kardashian's sex tape in our non-coding region for entertainment, but mutating the essential "coding" regions is trickier, like knocking out the urge to procreate (see the downfall of the Shakers variant). Perhaps a much more hopeful idea is that should a virus really turn from benign to virulent, evolutionary pressure bears down on an otherwise complacent population to select for the best defense against it; until this cultural idea is eliminated or the specie is and thus the cycle repeats as Nature allows for the next host or the virus take over the vacated niche.
- titzer 10y ago
  > Applying Biology/genetics as a metaphor for the transmission of human culture and ideas is actually an very dangerous and subversive idea I hope that in this day and age, the danger is mostly passed and individuals can take part in free inquiry without fear. It should be obvious that evolution plays a role here. After all, it has the three main ingredients: replication, mutation, and selection.
- anentropic 10y ago
nv-vn 10y ago
Considering Ursa Major is only visible in the North Pole AFAICT, the fact that the myth isn't present in Indonesia, Australia, and New Guinea supports the GP's hypothesis.
- novaleaf 10y ago
  that's a very good point, though it would also imply there's something more "big game like" about Ursa than some southern-sky constellation.

aaron695 10y ago

"very rare" "nearly absent" does acknowledge that they do exist though. So we know at least they will spontaneously appear. And if it's a good meme why didn't it spread? The stars are a huge part of any lore. Hunting is a huge part of a mans life (Along with women) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_astronomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_astronom...

lgessler 10y ago
I don't think that's a good counterargument--there are hundreds and probably thousands of data points in those regions. Using a simplistic metaphor, what are the odds that when all the cultures in the world rolled the dice to decide whether they'd have a Cosmic Hunter myth almost all of the ones in Australia, Indonesia, and Papua New Guinea rolled not to? Vanishingly small.
- aaron695 10y ago
  I don't know. Stories like this sound pretty close to me - http://members.optusnet.com.au/virgothomas/space/abobeliefs2.html http://members.optusnet.com.au/virgothomas/space/abobeliefs2... (Two Brothers & The Pointer Stars) All primitive societies obviously have stories of the stars being people and animals. Men were hunters, the animals will be game. Finding a exact narrative the fits your model from thousands of data points feels possible to me. [edit] From the authors paper read "What about the Saharan versions of Cosmic Hunt" and tell me they are not just making stuff up
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >From the authors paper read "What about the Saharan versions of Cosmic Hunt" and tell me they are not just making stuff up What about it seems as if they are "making stuff up"? They summarize several versions of some such stories, with differentiating details, and even give the papers and studies where they were collected by anthropologists, etc.

noname123 10y ago

>the absence of Cosmic Hunt stories in New Guinea, Indonesia, and Australia would seem to be a counter to your hypothesis, Following the genetics metaphor, the distinctiveness of the myth story in that region of the world is due to the isolation of the Australian continent that doesn't allow for a free-flow of genetic information from the rest of the world and therefore shows a loss of "cultural variation" because only a few "founders" whose consciousness at the time of their progeniting is not representative of the diversity of the global human consciousness. (Founder effect, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect) Applying Biology/genetics as a metaphor for the transmission of human culture and ideas is actually an very dangerous and subversive idea, for instance, following this logic, the most popular religion or dominant culture is not necessarily the most useful to the host genome, but the best viral "meme" that can replicate itself while balancing its own replication vs. the viability of the host (e.g., a malaria that allowed the host and its transmission vector to slightly evolve partial defenses against it so that it too can survive and replicate or the benign Herpes simplex virus that has 90% penetration rate). Human culture/consciousness has lots of garbage, "non-coding" regions that a virus can replicate its repeat sequences onto the collective consciousness like say Kim Kardashian's sex tape in our non-coding region for entertainment, but mutating the essential "coding" regions is trickier, like knocking out the urge to procreate (see the downfall of the Shakers variant). Perhaps a much more hopeful idea is that should a virus really turn from benign to virulent, evolutionary pressure bears down on an otherwise complacent population to select for the best defense against it; until this cultural idea is eliminated or the specie is and thus the cycle repeats as Nature allows for the next host or the virus take over the vacated niche.

titzer 10y ago
> Applying Biology/genetics as a metaphor for the transmission of human culture and ideas is actually an very dangerous and subversive idea I hope that in this day and age, the danger is mostly passed and individuals can take part in free inquiry without fear. It should be obvious that evolution plays a role here. After all, it has the three main ingredients: replication, mutation, and selection.
anentropic 10y ago

nv-vn 10y ago

Considering Ursa Major is only visible in the North Pole AFAICT, the fact that the myth isn't present in Indonesia, Australia, and New Guinea supports the GP's hypothesis.

novaleaf 10y ago
that's a very good point, though it would also imply there's something more "big game like" about Ursa than some southern-sky constellation.