5 ms·

I'd guess plenty of people are in a situation where they're not miserable at the current company but they would like to get paid more.

by kevan 10y ago

ryandrake 10y ago
If you are only able to get more by threatening to quit, that sounds like a pretty miserable place to me.
- prklmn 10y ago
  Many people are afraid to ask for raises and default to looking for work elsewhere.
  - chrisbennet 10y ago
    For me, it just wasn't worth the hassle for a sub-market raise. Not giving me a raise in N years is sending me a message "You aren't valued." I found it much easier to just go someplace that would value me. I worked for wonderful companies and I liked working there but business is business.
  - CydeWeys 10y ago
    Looking for work elsewhere has a much higher success rate. The vast majority of programming jobs are simply at companies that cannot pay a really high salary for their developers. These companies just aren't big enough or profitable enough per developer to support it. My last job hop was like this, moving from a small company in a market niche to the big leagues. I'm making more now than anyone at my previous company except for maybe the owner. Asking for raises doesn't get you far for most programmers who are working at companies for wages that are roughly appropriate relative to their profitability. Or to look at it another way, the same programmer with the same skills is going to make more profits if they're working at, say, Amazon, than if they're working on some backend IT system at a regional bank. So the former has correspondingly higher remuneration.
  - cookiecaper 10y ago
    There is great political risk in requesting a raise. Many employers would take offense and consider it an insult, and for some reason, after you've gone to that substantial political risk, a lot of employers seem to think that their employees should be content with raises of 2-5%. If you do get a raise, the counteroffer issue is still valid; your employer is given cause to question your loyalty and may be more suspicious of your contributions moving forward. This sentiment has been expressed by MS CEO Satya Nadella and I'm sure it's popular in other management circles. Ironically, it's generally less offensive as well as much more effective at getting a real increase in take-home pay to go out and get an offer from an external employer.
    - jsmthrowaway 10y ago
      > Many employers would take offense and consider it an insult, If they do, flee. Business is business and if people are getting offended about business, something is wrong.
      - cookiecaper 10y ago
        Easy to say, but not how it works in the real world. If you walk in to your boss's office and accuse him of underpaying you, he's going to feel hurt. That's the natural reaction. Telling him "business is business" is not likely to improve his feelings. Business would be better named "pampering giant babies", because that's what it is. Despite the mythology that we're programmed with, most of the work of being in charge is managing peoples' feelings so that they stay favorable to you. There is a ton of room for mistakes as long as everyone likes you, and very little if nobody does. Thus, the whole of business training can be summarized with "be as popular and well-liked as possible". They try to dress it up fancy and act like they do something better than that, but they don't. The most important thing in anyone's career is what their boss and their boss's bosses think of them. Only slightly less important is what their peers think of them. Work performance is essentially a non-factor in career advancement, so it actually is really important to manage this kind of thing carefully. Asking directly for a raise is confrontational and inelegant. Subtly demonstrating that you deserve a raise and making your boss believe it was his idea is how you actually get one without alienating anyone. That's a lot of work, so most people just jump to another employer instead.
- DominikR 10y ago
  Many people do not have the self confidence or social skills to be successful at negotiating a raise. Many don't even ask.
  - stretchwithme 10y ago
    Sometimes I wonder if some tech employees would be better off with managers who took a cut negotiating for them, at least until their value is established.
    - Clubber 10y ago
      In my experience, all raises are based off your hiring salary. You start at $100K, you gets several 10% raises, you end up at $100Kx1.10. If you start at $75%, same thing. $75Kx1.10. Rinse and repeat. After 5 years, you are significantly behind based on that initial negotiation. Also, I've read never take the first offer. YMMV.
- fecak 10y ago
  This is actually part of the recruiter's script when trying to overcome a candidate accepting a counteroffer. I think the line I was taught was "you only got a raise because you held a gun to their head". This isn't a line I would use, just telling you what recruiters are trained to say.
  - ryandrake 10y ago
    It's true though, isn't it? Another thing to consider: "Will you have to hold a gun to their head every year?" Interviewing is a pain, and I wouldn't want to have be doing it continuously in order to keep myself at market rate. Let's say (conservatively) you need to interview at an average of 20 companies to get an offer, and that it takes an average of 4 days to prep, conduct each interview, and follow-up. That's 80 days of your life each year just to stay on the treadmill. I've been in situations where I use all of my year's vacation days interviewing at other companies. It's not fun.
    - galdosdi 10y ago
      (1) 20 companies to get an offer is very high for software engineering / related work in major hubs (eg NYC, bay, etc) (2) If you're applying to similar jobs (in terms of skill) then a single amount of prep can be shared among many I know many who try to "get in the market" every year or so just for "curiosity"
      - vonmoltke 10y ago
        > (1) 20 companies to get an offer is very high for software engineering / related work in major hubs (eg NYC, bay, etc) Not everybody lives in a major hub, and for those who don't it can be really hard to get a company in one to notice you exist, let alone make you an offer.
        amyjess 10y ago
        Thank you. I've noticed your username come up a lot in these kinds of threads, and you're one of the only people I've seen whose experiences matched mine. Job-hunting in Dallas is hard. I've been unemployed twice. The first time was long-term (to the point where it was affecting my sanity) and during the Great Recession. The second time, which was earlier this year, wasn't that long but still harrowing. After I got laid off, it was two months before I got an in-person interview. I got the job, but I'm fairly sure that a good part of the reason I was even considered for an interview was because one of my best friends works here and put in a good word for me with HR. Also, on at least three occasions I've tried job-hunting while employed. Only one time did I actually find a new job before giving up.
- GCA10 10y ago
  Not necessarily. In my case, I was one level too low in a strong organization. I had just done a geographic transfer and they hadn't quite slotted me into the kind of job that would have delivered all the good stuff (projects, recognition, pay, etc.) that I wanted. Plus I'd been assigned to a timid boss who wasn't going to make things change. It was amazing how much everything improved once I had a higher-paying offer from a leading competitor. Boom! Better title. Boom, more money. Boom, a lot more face time with VP level folks who became my de facto bosses and boosters. I ended up staying at that place for another 13 years and had a great ride. My timid "boss" was gone from the organization within two years. The guy never caused me a bit of pain after that. I'm glad other posters are saying that in the end, it's the agency recruiters who really hate counteroffers. The economics for them are so disastrous that they can't help but try to tug talented employees over to their point of view. From my experience, it all comes down to whether you can get your current employer to make your working situation a lot better, as well as bump up the money. If they are capable of delivering a whole new situation, then you're in a good place.
cbsmith 10y ago
Then you should just say, "hey, I'd like a raise, and I can prove I'm worth more to others". If you have to go as far as, "I am quitting!", you've got a problem.

I'd guess plenty of people are in a situation where they're not miserable at the current company but they would like to get paid more.

by kevan 10y ago

I'd guess plenty of people are in a situation where they're not miserable at the current company but they would like to get paid more.

ryandrake 10y ago

If you are only able to get more by threatening to quit, that sounds like a pretty miserable place to me.

prklmn 10y ago
Many people are afraid to ask for raises and default to looking for work elsewhere.
- chrisbennet 10y ago
  For me, it just wasn't worth the hassle for a sub-market raise. Not giving me a raise in N years is sending me a message "You aren't valued." I found it much easier to just go someplace that would value me. I worked for wonderful companies and I liked working there but business is business.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  Looking for work elsewhere has a much higher success rate. The vast majority of programming jobs are simply at companies that cannot pay a really high salary for their developers. These companies just aren't big enough or profitable enough per developer to support it. My last job hop was like this, moving from a small company in a market niche to the big leagues. I'm making more now than anyone at my previous company except for maybe the owner. Asking for raises doesn't get you far for most programmers who are working at companies for wages that are roughly appropriate relative to their profitability. Or to look at it another way, the same programmer with the same skills is going to make more profits if they're working at, say, Amazon, than if they're working on some backend IT system at a regional bank. So the former has correspondingly higher remuneration.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  There is great political risk in requesting a raise. Many employers would take offense and consider it an insult, and for some reason, after you've gone to that substantial political risk, a lot of employers seem to think that their employees should be content with raises of 2-5%. If you do get a raise, the counteroffer issue is still valid; your employer is given cause to question your loyalty and may be more suspicious of your contributions moving forward. This sentiment has been expressed by MS CEO Satya Nadella and I'm sure it's popular in other management circles. Ironically, it's generally less offensive as well as much more effective at getting a real increase in take-home pay to go out and get an offer from an external employer.
  - jsmthrowaway 10y ago
    > Many employers would take offense and consider it an insult, If they do, flee. Business is business and if people are getting offended about business, something is wrong.
    - cookiecaper 10y ago
      Easy to say, but not how it works in the real world. If you walk in to your boss's office and accuse him of underpaying you, he's going to feel hurt. That's the natural reaction. Telling him "business is business" is not likely to improve his feelings. Business would be better named "pampering giant babies", because that's what it is. Despite the mythology that we're programmed with, most of the work of being in charge is managing peoples' feelings so that they stay favorable to you. There is a ton of room for mistakes as long as everyone likes you, and very little if nobody does. Thus, the whole of business training can be summarized with "be as popular and well-liked as possible". They try to dress it up fancy and act like they do something better than that, but they don't. The most important thing in anyone's career is what their boss and their boss's bosses think of them. Only slightly less important is what their peers think of them. Work performance is essentially a non-factor in career advancement, so it actually is really important to manage this kind of thing carefully. Asking directly for a raise is confrontational and inelegant. Subtly demonstrating that you deserve a raise and making your boss believe it was his idea is how you actually get one without alienating anyone. That's a lot of work, so most people just jump to another employer instead.
DominikR 10y ago
Many people do not have the self confidence or social skills to be successful at negotiating a raise. Many don't even ask.
- stretchwithme 10y ago
  Sometimes I wonder if some tech employees would be better off with managers who took a cut negotiating for them, at least until their value is established.
  - Clubber 10y ago
    In my experience, all raises are based off your hiring salary. You start at $100K, you gets several 10% raises, you end up at $100Kx1.10. If you start at $75%, same thing. $75Kx1.10. Rinse and repeat. After 5 years, you are significantly behind based on that initial negotiation. Also, I've read never take the first offer. YMMV.
fecak 10y ago
This is actually part of the recruiter's script when trying to overcome a candidate accepting a counteroffer. I think the line I was taught was "you only got a raise because you held a gun to their head". This isn't a line I would use, just telling you what recruiters are trained to say.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  It's true though, isn't it? Another thing to consider: "Will you have to hold a gun to their head every year?" Interviewing is a pain, and I wouldn't want to have be doing it continuously in order to keep myself at market rate. Let's say (conservatively) you need to interview at an average of 20 companies to get an offer, and that it takes an average of 4 days to prep, conduct each interview, and follow-up. That's 80 days of your life each year just to stay on the treadmill. I've been in situations where I use all of my year's vacation days interviewing at other companies. It's not fun.
  - galdosdi 10y ago
    (1) 20 companies to get an offer is very high for software engineering / related work in major hubs (eg NYC, bay, etc) (2) If you're applying to similar jobs (in terms of skill) then a single amount of prep can be shared among many I know many who try to "get in the market" every year or so just for "curiosity"
    - vonmoltke 10y ago
      > (1) 20 companies to get an offer is very high for software engineering / related work in major hubs (eg NYC, bay, etc) Not everybody lives in a major hub, and for those who don't it can be really hard to get a company in one to notice you exist, let alone make you an offer.
      - amyjess 10y ago
        Thank you. I've noticed your username come up a lot in these kinds of threads, and you're one of the only people I've seen whose experiences matched mine. Job-hunting in Dallas is hard. I've been unemployed twice. The first time was long-term (to the point where it was affecting my sanity) and during the Great Recession. The second time, which was earlier this year, wasn't that long but still harrowing. After I got laid off, it was two months before I got an in-person interview. I got the job, but I'm fairly sure that a good part of the reason I was even considered for an interview was because one of my best friends works here and put in a good word for me with HR. Also, on at least three occasions I've tried job-hunting while employed. Only one time did I actually find a new job before giving up.
GCA10 10y ago
Not necessarily. In my case, I was one level too low in a strong organization. I had just done a geographic transfer and they hadn't quite slotted me into the kind of job that would have delivered all the good stuff (projects, recognition, pay, etc.) that I wanted. Plus I'd been assigned to a timid boss who wasn't going to make things change. It was amazing how much everything improved once I had a higher-paying offer from a leading competitor. Boom! Better title. Boom, more money. Boom, a lot more face time with VP level folks who became my de facto bosses and boosters. I ended up staying at that place for another 13 years and had a great ride. My timid "boss" was gone from the organization within two years. The guy never caused me a bit of pain after that. I'm glad other posters are saying that in the end, it's the agency recruiters who really hate counteroffers. The economics for them are so disastrous that they can't help but try to tug talented employees over to their point of view. From my experience, it all comes down to whether you can get your current employer to make your working situation a lot better, as well as bump up the money. If they are capable of delivering a whole new situation, then you're in a good place.

cbsmith 10y ago

Then you should just say, "hey, I'd like a raise, and I can prove I'm worth more to others". If you have to go as far as, "I am quitting!", you've got a problem.