4 ms·

Well. Emacs is trying to be everything and is extremely powerful. VS on the other hand is better in its own domain than Emacs.

by barpet 10y ago

qwertyuiop924 10y ago
But what IS the VS domain? Is it just plain text editing? Because Emacs can smash it at that. Is is programming? Because Emacs beats it in the general case at that, too. Is it programming in a very specific language? This is where it starts to win out, but I don't want to switch editors every time I switch languages, and Emacs does all of that Good Enough. It even has semantic autocomplete in some languages at this point. The only thing it's missing is refactoring tools, which aren't as important when you're not writing Java.
- janwillemb 10y ago
  Have you ever programmed in C#? That's what VS is good at.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    The point I made in the post is that while VS might be better with C#, Emacs works well with everything, works Good Enough with most languages, and pretty good for C#. In fact, looking over the feature list for Emacs C# editing (https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CSharpMode https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CSharpMode), I can't find anything obviously missing from VS. In any case, I don't want to learn a new environment every time I change languages.
    - barpet 10y ago
      Why would you learn Emacs if you do only C# or other MS technologies and have already mastered VS.And that was exactly what my comment was about. Emacs is the best general purpose tool that you can tweak to your needs and make it also superior in things of your choosing. VS works well what it was designed for. Also as an Emacs user working on Windows I have to tell you that Emacs experience and performance is sadly subpar compared to OSX or Linux.
      - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Why would you learn only one set of technology? I suppose that's my main issue. As for emacs, have you tried Cygwin? I've heard it improves things.
    - drivingmenuts 10y ago
      > In any case, I don't want to learn a new environment every time I change languages. I don't see anyone advocating that you be forced to do so. Hell, as a vi(m) user, Nature's perfect enemy of an Emacs user, I don't actually give a damn as long as you get the line-endings right. If you were looking for a list of extensions for Emacs (or macros or whatever), then feel free to contribute a list.
      - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Nah, I was just seeing if there might be some good extensions that I should look for (or write) in Emacs-land. None of them seemed to be all that worthwhile, IMHO.
- moomin 10y ago
  Debugging. VS has a pretty amazing debugging experience.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    Does it beat the Emacs debugging experience? We've got some pretty sweet debugging integration.
    - jasode 10y ago
      MSVS has "edit & continue" for C# code. It also has backwards step debugging with Intellitrace.
      - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
        Jeez. That's actually quite impressive! I mean, well done.
  - animal531 10y ago
    In general I'd agree, but in the newest Visual Studio 2015 I can consistently hang it if I debug too fast.
- jasode 10y ago
  >But what IS the VS domain? Things like C++ that's specific to Win32 API, C# and ASP.NET, and Windows Phone apps (but that device isn't so popular). >, but I don't want to switch editors every time I switch languages, I regularly switch around from MS VS for C++ Win32 API & C#, to Qt Creator for C++ on Linux, to Jetbrains IntelliJ/Webstorm for Java/Android/Javascript, and to Apple Xcode for iOS/Swift. It doesn't seem that hard to do that. Yes, every vendor-specific editor has its own non-standard keyboard mapping for things like build, debug, run, etc but my brain has no problem mentally remapping on-the-fly to each editor. Press F5 to Run the project in MSVS and then press shift+F10 to Run in IntelliJ. I'm no genius and yet my brain has no problem switching in quick succession. What's really hard is switching from an American physical keyboard to a German one -- e.g. my muscle memory wants to press the key for 'Z' but I always end up with the letter 'Y'. I can see the advantages of trying to create a universal editor environment in vi/emacs that works on every language but I've tried it and it's not worth it. The customization capabilities (and effort required) in Emacs doesn't match the advanced integrated tools of the vendor-specific code editors. >The only thing it's missing is refactoring tools, which aren't as important when you're not writing Java. I also use refactoring for a bunch of other languages like C++, C#, Javascript, and Swift. > In fact, looking over the feature list for Emacs C# editing (https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CSharpMode https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CSharpMode), I can't find anything obviously missing from VS. MSVS has the GUI dialog editors for Winforms, WPF, ASP.NET. It also has tight integration with SQL Server. It also has slick integration with Azure if you're doing cloud deployment. And if I'm inside a main.cpp file with the cursor is hovering over CreateWindow(), pressing F1 will bring up the exact MSDN documentation for that Win32 function. Last time I looked, Emacs didn't have all that without a lot of customization work. Conceivably, you can customize Emacs to do anything. However, with MSVS, all the integration of helpful tools (the stuff beyond just syntax highlighting of code) works right out the box.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    ...Whereas as an Emacs user, I put a lot of work into customizing my tools, learning to work as efficiently as a possible with the tools I have, and all that, and so have a greater connection to them. We don't have Dialog editors built in, we don't have SQL Server or Azure integration. But we do have doc intgration, courtesy of OmniSharp for C#, and courtesy of various packages for other languages. Sure, it's a good bit of work, but you get a better environment out of it.

Well. Emacs is trying to be everything and is extremely powerful. VS on the other hand is better in its own domain than Emacs.

by barpet 10y ago

Well. Emacs is trying to be everything and is extremely powerful. VS on the other hand is better in its own domain than Emacs.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

But what IS the VS domain? Is it just plain text editing? Because Emacs can smash it at that. Is is programming? Because Emacs beats it in the general case at that, too. Is it programming in a very specific language? This is where it starts to win out, but I don't want to switch editors every time I switch languages, and Emacs does all of that Good Enough. It even has semantic autocomplete in some languages at this point. The only thing it's missing is refactoring tools, which aren't as important when you're not writing Java.

janwillemb 10y ago
Have you ever programmed in C#? That's what VS is good at.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  The point I made in the post is that while VS might be better with C#, Emacs works well with everything, works Good Enough with most languages, and pretty good for C#. In fact, looking over the feature list for Emacs C# editing (https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CSharpMode https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CSharpMode), I can't find anything obviously missing from VS. In any case, I don't want to learn a new environment every time I change languages.
  - barpet 10y ago
    Why would you learn Emacs if you do only C# or other MS technologies and have already mastered VS.And that was exactly what my comment was about. Emacs is the best general purpose tool that you can tweak to your needs and make it also superior in things of your choosing. VS works well what it was designed for. Also as an Emacs user working on Windows I have to tell you that Emacs experience and performance is sadly subpar compared to OSX or Linux.
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      Why would you learn only one set of technology? I suppose that's my main issue. As for emacs, have you tried Cygwin? I've heard it improves things.
  - drivingmenuts 10y ago
    > In any case, I don't want to learn a new environment every time I change languages. I don't see anyone advocating that you be forced to do so. Hell, as a vi(m) user, Nature's perfect enemy of an Emacs user, I don't actually give a damn as long as you get the line-endings right. If you were looking for a list of extensions for Emacs (or macros or whatever), then feel free to contribute a list.
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      Nah, I was just seeing if there might be some good extensions that I should look for (or write) in Emacs-land. None of them seemed to be all that worthwhile, IMHO.
moomin 10y ago
Debugging. VS has a pretty amazing debugging experience.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  Does it beat the Emacs debugging experience? We've got some pretty sweet debugging integration.
  - jasode 10y ago
    MSVS has "edit & continue" for C# code. It also has backwards step debugging with Intellitrace.
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      Jeez. That's actually quite impressive! I mean, well done.
- animal531 10y ago
  In general I'd agree, but in the newest Visual Studio 2015 I can consistently hang it if I debug too fast.
jasode 10y ago
>But what IS the VS domain? Things like C++ that's specific to Win32 API, C# and ASP.NET, and Windows Phone apps (but that device isn't so popular). >, but I don't want to switch editors every time I switch languages, I regularly switch around from MS VS for C++ Win32 API & C#, to Qt Creator for C++ on Linux, to Jetbrains IntelliJ/Webstorm for Java/Android/Javascript, and to Apple Xcode for iOS/Swift. It doesn't seem that hard to do that. Yes, every vendor-specific editor has its own non-standard keyboard mapping for things like build, debug, run, etc but my brain has no problem mentally remapping on-the-fly to each editor. Press F5 to Run the project in MSVS and then press shift+F10 to Run in IntelliJ. I'm no genius and yet my brain has no problem switching in quick succession. What's really hard is switching from an American physical keyboard to a German one -- e.g. my muscle memory wants to press the key for 'Z' but I always end up with the letter 'Y'. I can see the advantages of trying to create a universal editor environment in vi/emacs that works on every language but I've tried it and it's not worth it. The customization capabilities (and effort required) in Emacs doesn't match the advanced integrated tools of the vendor-specific code editors. >The only thing it's missing is refactoring tools, which aren't as important when you're not writing Java. I also use refactoring for a bunch of other languages like C++, C#, Javascript, and Swift. > In fact, looking over the feature list for Emacs C# editing (https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CSharpMode https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CSharpMode), I can't find anything obviously missing from VS. MSVS has the GUI dialog editors for Winforms, WPF, ASP.NET. It also has tight integration with SQL Server. It also has slick integration with Azure if you're doing cloud deployment. And if I'm inside a main.cpp file with the cursor is hovering over CreateWindow(), pressing F1 will bring up the exact MSDN documentation for that Win32 function. Last time I looked, Emacs didn't have all that without a lot of customization work. Conceivably, you can customize Emacs to do anything. However, with MSVS, all the integration of helpful tools (the stuff beyond just syntax highlighting of code) works right out the box.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  ...Whereas as an Emacs user, I put a lot of work into customizing my tools, learning to work as efficiently as a possible with the tools I have, and all that, and so have a greater connection to them. We don't have Dialog editors built in, we don't have SQL Server or Azure integration. But we do have doc intgration, courtesy of OmniSharp for C#, and courtesy of various packages for other languages. Sure, it's a good bit of work, but you get a better environment out of it.