5 ms·

Summary: there is no "one size fits all". > No one is going to ban cars, but it turns out that spending 80 minutes per day in one really sucks, You're assumin

by anamax 17y ago

Summary: there is no "one size fits all". > No one is going to ban cars, but it turns out that spending 80 minutes per day in one really sucks, You're assuming that everyone in suburbia spends 80 minutes commuting. Some do, some don't. You're also assuming that commute times are uniform and that minimizing them is the only goal. In my household, commute time is 10 minutes by one person and 60 by the other. Moving closer to the 60 would move us farther from other things that are important to us. > and if we can build a society where people live closer together and can ride a train to work, that's progress. You're assuming that people value living closer together. Some don't. They'll gladly pay extra commute time to avoid it. I write "extra" because that time on the train/bus is also commute time, and it isn't necessarily better time than car time. Yes, some people do prefer train time to driving, but not everyone thinks that 30 minutes on a train (or bus) is better than 80 minutes in a car. (If you need to run errands or do something, the car wins.) And even fewer like the train/bus if it's the same or more time. I think that people who don't like suburbia's tradeoffs shouldn't live there. The same is true of cities.... Not everyone is a DINK couple. Some people even drive because that makes it possible for them to quickly get to their kids in an emergency. (Parents value such things.)

pw0ncakes 17y ago
I don't have a problem with driving. I like driving, but I wouldn't enjoy having to do it for an hour every day. It's car dependence that sucks about suburbia. When everyone drives because everyone has to do so, you get a mess: traffic, sprawl, loss of community, ugly places not worth caring about.
- hugh3 17y ago
  In which case the solution is just better suburb design. Make sure there's an area zoned commercial within twenty minutes' walk of nearly every house. Big enough to support at least a small supermarket plus a few cafes and restaurants, and ideally an elementary school as well. It's bad if you have to drive just to get milk and eggs or to take your kids to school. I grew up in suburban Sydney and was always confused by why Americans derided suburbs so much; but then I saw American suburbs. All they need is better planning. Throw in some more commercial districts, and prevent the building of zillions of identical houses by discouraging a single builder from building hundreds of houses; instead sell individual lots to individuals who can then contract with their own builders.
  - potatolicious 17y ago
    The discussion of urbanism in this country has been falsely polarized. The anti-burbs imagine suburbs as necessarily this sprawling mess of wide boulevards and rows of gigantic, identical houses, while the anti-urban imagine city living as necessarily a soulless forest of skyscrapers. There is a happy middle here that isn't talked about very much, even though it is by far the most cost effective and pleasant solution. Slightly OT, but if anyone here ever wants to witness a textbook example of suburbia run amok, creating a wasteland of little value to humanity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississauga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississauga
    - anamax 17y ago
      > The anti-burbs imagine suburbs as necessarily this sprawling mess of wide boulevards and rows of gigantic, identical houses while the anti-urban imagine city living as necessarily a soulless forest of skyscrapers. You're forgetting that many of the suburbians see cities every day because that's where they work.... What fraction of the urban crowd have a comparable experience? ("I grew up in a suburb and hated it" doesn't count.)
      - enf 17y ago
        There are an awful lot of city people too who have to see the suburbs every day for work and are relieved when they get to go home to the city. I am thinking in particular of all the San Franciscans who work in the South Bay.
        potatolicious 17y ago
        I know many a Microsoftie here in Seattle that suffer a pretty torturous commute to the burbs while living in urban areas.
        anamax 17y ago
        You really think that driving down 101 (or riding a WiFi bus) and to Castro Street for lunch shows you what living in the South Bay is like? Wowsers. FWIW, almost all of suburban South Bay housing has a grocery store within 20 walking minutes. (There may be a spot in the middle of Atherton that doesn't. The rural areas of Woodside and Portola Valley don't.) I mention that because of the claim above about how to "fix" American suburbs.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  You also get a gigantic financial burden, particularly on the segment of society that can least afford a gigantic steel-and-rubber money pit. Gentrification has turned affordable housing in dense city centres into a thing of the past - now "downtown living" is purely a luxury, wealthy thing in most cities. This has dealt a great blow to the poor of this country, as they are forced to relocate to suburbs inaccessible via reasonable public transit. To even get to work on time involves buying, insuring, and maintaining a car, which no matter which way you cut it is considerably more expensive than any bus/subway pass I've ever seen. It is often difficult for the middle and upper classes to see just how financially debilitating the car culture has been on the poor. A lot of this is the cultural ingrained notion that driving around is the "right" way to travel, and some bias against transit (smelly, unseemly people, personal safety concerns, etc) - I know some people who live in suburbia, who have come from transit-heavy countries/cities, who would jump at the chance to get rid of at least one car from the garage if they could.
  - anamax 17y ago
    > and some bias against transit (smelly, unseemly people, personal safety concerns, etc) Are you arguing that their concerns are not based in fact or that they shouldn't care about such things?
- anamax 17y ago
  > I like driving, but I wouldn't enjoy having to do it for an hour every day. Good for you. My point is that other people are, wait for it, different. More to the point, they're getting something out of their drive that they value. It's okay that you don't agree with them, but it's not okay to insist that they're wrong or that they don't exist. > When everyone drives because everyone has to do so, you get a mess: traffic, sprawl, loss of community, ugly places not worth caring about. That's your opinion. Their opinion is different. Why doesn't their opinion deserve as much respect as yours?

by anamax 17y ago

pw0ncakes 17y ago

I don't have a problem with driving. I like driving, but I wouldn't enjoy having to do it for an hour every day. It's car dependence that sucks about suburbia. When everyone drives because everyone has to do so, you get a mess: traffic, sprawl, loss of community, ugly places not worth caring about.

hugh3 17y ago
In which case the solution is just better suburb design. Make sure there's an area zoned commercial within twenty minutes' walk of nearly every house. Big enough to support at least a small supermarket plus a few cafes and restaurants, and ideally an elementary school as well. It's bad if you have to drive just to get milk and eggs or to take your kids to school. I grew up in suburban Sydney and was always confused by why Americans derided suburbs so much; but then I saw American suburbs. All they need is better planning. Throw in some more commercial districts, and prevent the building of zillions of identical houses by discouraging a single builder from building hundreds of houses; instead sell individual lots to individuals who can then contract with their own builders.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  The discussion of urbanism in this country has been falsely polarized. The anti-burbs imagine suburbs as necessarily this sprawling mess of wide boulevards and rows of gigantic, identical houses, while the anti-urban imagine city living as necessarily a soulless forest of skyscrapers. There is a happy middle here that isn't talked about very much, even though it is by far the most cost effective and pleasant solution. Slightly OT, but if anyone here ever wants to witness a textbook example of suburbia run amok, creating a wasteland of little value to humanity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississauga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississauga
  - anamax 17y ago
    > The anti-burbs imagine suburbs as necessarily this sprawling mess of wide boulevards and rows of gigantic, identical houses while the anti-urban imagine city living as necessarily a soulless forest of skyscrapers. You're forgetting that many of the suburbians see cities every day because that's where they work.... What fraction of the urban crowd have a comparable experience? ("I grew up in a suburb and hated it" doesn't count.)
    - enf 17y ago
      There are an awful lot of city people too who have to see the suburbs every day for work and are relieved when they get to go home to the city. I am thinking in particular of all the San Franciscans who work in the South Bay.
      - potatolicious 17y ago
        I know many a Microsoftie here in Seattle that suffer a pretty torturous commute to the burbs while living in urban areas.
      - anamax 17y ago
        You really think that driving down 101 (or riding a WiFi bus) and to Castro Street for lunch shows you what living in the South Bay is like? Wowsers. FWIW, almost all of suburban South Bay housing has a grocery store within 20 walking minutes. (There may be a spot in the middle of Atherton that doesn't. The rural areas of Woodside and Portola Valley don't.) I mention that because of the claim above about how to "fix" American suburbs.
potatolicious 17y ago
You also get a gigantic financial burden, particularly on the segment of society that can least afford a gigantic steel-and-rubber money pit. Gentrification has turned affordable housing in dense city centres into a thing of the past - now "downtown living" is purely a luxury, wealthy thing in most cities. This has dealt a great blow to the poor of this country, as they are forced to relocate to suburbs inaccessible via reasonable public transit. To even get to work on time involves buying, insuring, and maintaining a car, which no matter which way you cut it is considerably more expensive than any bus/subway pass I've ever seen. It is often difficult for the middle and upper classes to see just how financially debilitating the car culture has been on the poor. A lot of this is the cultural ingrained notion that driving around is the "right" way to travel, and some bias against transit (smelly, unseemly people, personal safety concerns, etc) - I know some people who live in suburbia, who have come from transit-heavy countries/cities, who would jump at the chance to get rid of at least one car from the garage if they could.
- anamax 17y ago
  > and some bias against transit (smelly, unseemly people, personal safety concerns, etc) Are you arguing that their concerns are not based in fact or that they shouldn't care about such things?
anamax 17y ago
> I like driving, but I wouldn't enjoy having to do it for an hour every day. Good for you. My point is that other people are, wait for it, different. More to the point, they're getting something out of their drive that they value. It's okay that you don't agree with them, but it's not okay to insist that they're wrong or that they don't exist. > When everyone drives because everyone has to do so, you get a mess: traffic, sprawl, loss of community, ugly places not worth caring about. That's your opinion. Their opinion is different. Why doesn't their opinion deserve as much respect as yours?