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Some of what this guy is saying is moot because of the reprehensible tradition of plea bargaining in the United States. As far as I know (IANAL), most criminal

Some of what this guy is saying is moot because of the reprehensible tradition of plea bargaining in the United States. As far as I know (IANAL), most criminal accusations don't go to trial because the prosecutors throw everything they have at the defendant. If you're accused of a crime, it's often crazy to try to defend yourself: if you try to do so and lose, it'll ruin your life. Better just to plead out and take a deal. If the prosecutors can force you to gamble for your life and livelihood, it doesn't matter what evidence they have against you. The only way around the problem is to remain compliant and never get accused of anything.

morganvachon 10y ago
> The only way around the problem is to remain compliant and never get accused of anything. The issue with that is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to live a normal American life without breaking a few laws every now and then, and not even realizing it. The book's author touched on this during the interview, but basically more and more "everyday" actions are becoming criminalized over time. Technically, committing a crime implies criminal intent, but that notion has been absent from our justice system for a very long time. Look at how many laws are on the books about "negligent" crimes, those committed not out of intent but out of ignorance or forgetfulness. Traffic laws are easy to pick on for this metric, since in most states the driving tests barely scratch the surface of the body of traffic law. In some states you can be jailed over any moving violation at the officer's discretion, and that combined with the general attitude of "don't fight the ticket, just pay it" means you've just become part of the system, and this stacks the deck against you making it easier to gain a conviction if you're accused of a more serious crime later in life.
- chx 10y ago
  > The issue with that is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to live a normal American life without breaking a few laws every now and then, and not even realizing it. Well that has been the case for a while now, the Three Felonies A Day book https://smile.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229 https://smile.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/... is from 2009. Although of course the bombastic claim in the title is disputed http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/22530/does-the-average-american-unwittingly-commit-three-felonies-a-day http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/22530/does-the-a... it essentially claims the exact same as you.
  - morganvachon 10y ago
    > * it essentially claims the exact same as you.* First, I never said "three felonies a day". Second, I have an inside view -- I work for a law enforcement agency in a civilian position and have worked in this field for a total of fifteen years -- and what I've seen bears out what I actually said. Not necessarily three felonies a day, but as I said, most Americans unknowingly break a few laws every now and then just living a normal daily life. The problem is that the number of infractions has been steadily increasing over the past century, and soon the Dystopian concept of "everything you do is illegal" will begin to ring true.
    - chx 10y ago
      Right, as I said, the bombastic claim of the title is hardly true but if you deduct that from the book it does claim the same as you: ordinary people with ordinary lives will break some federal regulations now and then. Peace :)
      - morganvachon 10y ago
        Gotcha, I thought you were saying that I was claiming the wording of the title, not the actual content of the book.
mark212 10y ago
the vast majority of defendants plead guilty before trial because (1) there's a shit-ton of evidence of guilt and (2) they'll get a much better deal than going to trial. If you know you're going down, why not plead to three years now instead of five after trial? Invoking your right to counsel as early as possible solves #1. I know the media (and prosecutors themselves) like to portray prosecutors as zealous, aggressive advocates who go after crimes no matter how thing -- but the reality is that as a group they are political, timid and ass-covering. They only bring cases they know they can win because a loss is extremely embarrassing and sometimes career ending. And not coincidentally, this is part of the prosecutor's ethical obligation: to only bring cases where there is a ton of evidence of guilt.

morganvachon 10y ago

> The only way around the problem is to remain compliant and never get accused of anything. The issue with that is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to live a normal American life without breaking a few laws every now and then, and not even realizing it. The book's author touched on this during the interview, but basically more and more "everyday" actions are becoming criminalized over time. Technically, committing a crime implies criminal intent, but that notion has been absent from our justice system for a very long time. Look at how many laws are on the books about "negligent" crimes, those committed not out of intent but out of ignorance or forgetfulness. Traffic laws are easy to pick on for this metric, since in most states the driving tests barely scratch the surface of the body of traffic law. In some states you can be jailed over any moving violation at the officer's discretion, and that combined with the general attitude of "don't fight the ticket, just pay it" means you've just become part of the system, and this stacks the deck against you making it easier to gain a conviction if you're accused of a more serious crime later in life.

chx 10y ago
> The issue with that is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to live a normal American life without breaking a few laws every now and then, and not even realizing it. Well that has been the case for a while now, the Three Felonies A Day book https://smile.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229 https://smile.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/... is from 2009. Although of course the bombastic claim in the title is disputed http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/22530/does-the-average-american-unwittingly-commit-three-felonies-a-day http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/22530/does-the-a... it essentially claims the exact same as you.
- morganvachon 10y ago
  > * it essentially claims the exact same as you.* First, I never said "three felonies a day". Second, I have an inside view -- I work for a law enforcement agency in a civilian position and have worked in this field for a total of fifteen years -- and what I've seen bears out what I actually said. Not necessarily three felonies a day, but as I said, most Americans unknowingly break a few laws every now and then just living a normal daily life. The problem is that the number of infractions has been steadily increasing over the past century, and soon the Dystopian concept of "everything you do is illegal" will begin to ring true.
  - chx 10y ago
    Right, as I said, the bombastic claim of the title is hardly true but if you deduct that from the book it does claim the same as you: ordinary people with ordinary lives will break some federal regulations now and then. Peace :)
    - morganvachon 10y ago
      Gotcha, I thought you were saying that I was claiming the wording of the title, not the actual content of the book.

mark212 10y ago

the vast majority of defendants plead guilty before trial because (1) there's a shit-ton of evidence of guilt and (2) they'll get a much better deal than going to trial. If you know you're going down, why not plead to three years now instead of five after trial? Invoking your right to counsel as early as possible solves #1. I know the media (and prosecutors themselves) like to portray prosecutors as zealous, aggressive advocates who go after crimes no matter how thing -- but the reality is that as a group they are political, timid and ass-covering. They only bring cases they know they can win because a loss is extremely embarrassing and sometimes career ending. And not coincidentally, this is part of the prosecutor's ethical obligation: to only bring cases where there is a ton of evidence of guilt.