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Before I get all the hate I have to say of course cyclists should obey the laws. As a cyclist I can tell you it doesn't matter either way to many certifiably de

Before I get all the hate I have to say of course cyclists should obey the laws. As a cyclist I can tell you it doesn't matter either way to many certifiably deranged motorists. Caveat aside, I'm constantly amazed that this argument gets brought up over and over again. Traffic laws exist to ensure public safety. So let's cut the bike/car bullshit about the laws being equal for both. Let's take a simple offense like running a stop sign at 15 km/hr and suppose that a pedestrian gets hit. What's the difference between a car doing this and a bicycle? Both the bike and the car are going 4 m/s. But there's a huge difference between getting hit by a car that's 1500 kg plus passengers versus an 80 kg person plus a 9 kg bike. Simple thought experiment, you've just been hit by something. What outcome would be more favorable? Would you rather have a Honda Civic on your spleen or some asshat bike courier named Jack? Two tonnes versus nine kilograms? The crime may be the same, but the outcome is far different. I've seen a van run a red light and the cyclist traveling orthogonally ride right into the side of it going 45 km/hour. Not pretty.

lpr22 10y ago
I'd rather not be hit by either of them, period. Cars should not be running stop signs or lights, but neither should bicyclists, period. Full stop. Also, having a bike run the stop sign and fly into an intersection out of nowhere can easily cause cars to swerve, causing accidents, or even strike the bicyclist. It's not difficult to drive, ride, or walk safely. Just do it and stop whining.
- noobermin 10y ago
  There is a compromise, the Idaho stop[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
- orbitingpluto 10y ago
  Thank you white man with your white man argument. The 'stop whining' argument is such an over-privileged tactic that adds nothing to the discussion. It's very similar to #alllivesmatter. Anyway, to try to add something more, I have an anecdote: Two weeks ago, a car ran the red light and a speeding white SUV had to swerve out of the way to avoid it. The SUV lost control and smashed into the lightpole that was directly in front of me. I held up my backpack as a shield against the woman and baby in the stroller next to me walking in the opposite direction while bits of the car flew into the air. Luckily the pole held up. I had to make a guess about what was going to hit me. Debris or the car. My brain did that emergency lizard brain thinking that happens in situations like that. I found it really interesting for my brain to puzzle out what was going on in my head. Turned out that the debris was the only 'preventable' injury possible. I couldn't have gotten out of the way. I couldn't have gotten the lady and her baby out of the way. But I could conceivably stop debris from hitting us full on by shielding. If that was a cyclist... the most I'd have to worry about is a couple months of a really sore back.
  - lpr22 10y ago
    The first paragraph of this response is a dispicible belittlement of the rampant racism in the United States. Stop whining wasn't an argument, and having cyclists behave safely and follow road rules is absolutely nothing like being an apologist for racists that don't want to admit they're racists and just want the status quo. I believe that we all share this earth and we should all act safely and responsibly. Yes, cars kill far more easily than bikes, but bikes can seriously injure or kill as well. Cars swerving out of the way of bikes also kill, which could have easily been the result of your encounter, had the SUV been swerving to avoid a bike. You shouldn't be forced off the road. Pedestrians shouldn't step blindly into the road. Cars shouldn't drive erratically in populated areas. Bike can seriously injur or kill people, so just act responsibly.
    - orbitingpluto 10y ago
      The analogy is apt. #alllivesmatter belittles the concerns of black people and the disproportionate danger they face interacting with police. Likewise, cyclists are disproportionately at risk of serious harm while on the road. Not that complicated. Black people are 'whining' because they have legitimate concerns for their safety. Cyclists do as well. And the laws are written in such a way that blacks/cyclists deaths can be easily swept under the rug. Stop whining is not helpful advice. It means shut up. Wow. Late night rant, perhaps I should have run as the Republican candidate for POTUS.
      - lpr22 10y ago
        They are not the same in any kind of way. If you think that people getting murdered because of the color of their skin by agents acting under color of authority is equivalent to saying that cyclists shouldn't be shamed for acting unsafely and possibly causing accidents, injuries, or death because bikes are not cars, all I can think is that I feel as sorry for you as I do for the #alllivesmatter people. In this instance, stop whining is not advice, it's in response to people thinking that for their own narcissistic reasons, it's okay to jeapordize the safety of others. That includes the cars that park in bike lanes as well as the bicyclists who blow through stop signs.
baddox 10y ago
I think that's a pretty awful argument. Obviously different traffic violations in different vehicles carry different safety risks. But I would say that there are broad classes of traffic violations that are deserving of roughly equal social stigma, and I think running a stop sign in a populated area is one of them. A bicycle is absolutely capable of seriously injuring or killing a pedestrian, or causing a larger accident among other vehicles and automobiles. Yes, all else being equal, a car will do more damage than a bike, but it's not enough of a difference for me to react with noticeably different levels of disdain. Surely you don't tie your level of disdain linearly to the mass of the vehicle. Is an SUV running a stop sign twice as bad as a compact car running a stop sign?
- orbitingpluto 10y ago
  > Is an SUV running a stop sign twice as bad as a compact car running a stop sign? That's such a willfully stupid response. Compare these: Bike:Compact:SUV to pelletgun:handgun:rifle Morever, did you read the first thing that I said? "Before I get all the hate I have to say of course cyclists should obey the laws." Thank you for adding NOTHING to the conversation except for demonstrating the whacked out stupidity that is the core problem here. Your kind argues that we have to obey the same laws as motorists while forcing us into the gutter. "Separate but equal?"
  - baddox 10y ago
    > Compare these: Bike:Compact:SUV to pelletgun:handgun:rifle Like I said, a bicycle is very capable of severely injuring or killing a pedestrian, which is why I group it together with automobiles. I'm not familiar with how powerful pellet guns are, so I don't know how that analogy applies. I suspect they are at least capable of causing severe eye injury, and I would encourage the exact same precautionary behavior with pellet guns as with handguns and rifles (trigger discipline, don't point at people, etc.). I guess I'm a little confused by what point you're trying to make. If your preface was intended to invalidate everything you wrote after it, then it's my mistake for trying to do the same.
    - 10y ago
jdavis703 10y ago
The amount of times I see a cyclist blast through a stop sign at full speed is about the same as I see a car blatantly run a red light -- maybe once a month. The vast majority of cyclists rolling through stop signs seem to roll through them at about the same pace as cars do.

lpr22 10y ago

I'd rather not be hit by either of them, period. Cars should not be running stop signs or lights, but neither should bicyclists, period. Full stop. Also, having a bike run the stop sign and fly into an intersection out of nowhere can easily cause cars to swerve, causing accidents, or even strike the bicyclist. It's not difficult to drive, ride, or walk safely. Just do it and stop whining.

noobermin 10y ago
There is a compromise, the Idaho stop[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
orbitingpluto 10y ago
Thank you white man with your white man argument. The 'stop whining' argument is such an over-privileged tactic that adds nothing to the discussion. It's very similar to #alllivesmatter. Anyway, to try to add something more, I have an anecdote: Two weeks ago, a car ran the red light and a speeding white SUV had to swerve out of the way to avoid it. The SUV lost control and smashed into the lightpole that was directly in front of me. I held up my backpack as a shield against the woman and baby in the stroller next to me walking in the opposite direction while bits of the car flew into the air. Luckily the pole held up. I had to make a guess about what was going to hit me. Debris or the car. My brain did that emergency lizard brain thinking that happens in situations like that. I found it really interesting for my brain to puzzle out what was going on in my head. Turned out that the debris was the only 'preventable' injury possible. I couldn't have gotten out of the way. I couldn't have gotten the lady and her baby out of the way. But I could conceivably stop debris from hitting us full on by shielding. If that was a cyclist... the most I'd have to worry about is a couple months of a really sore back.
- lpr22 10y ago
  The first paragraph of this response is a dispicible belittlement of the rampant racism in the United States. Stop whining wasn't an argument, and having cyclists behave safely and follow road rules is absolutely nothing like being an apologist for racists that don't want to admit they're racists and just want the status quo. I believe that we all share this earth and we should all act safely and responsibly. Yes, cars kill far more easily than bikes, but bikes can seriously injure or kill as well. Cars swerving out of the way of bikes also kill, which could have easily been the result of your encounter, had the SUV been swerving to avoid a bike. You shouldn't be forced off the road. Pedestrians shouldn't step blindly into the road. Cars shouldn't drive erratically in populated areas. Bike can seriously injur or kill people, so just act responsibly.
  - orbitingpluto 10y ago
    The analogy is apt. #alllivesmatter belittles the concerns of black people and the disproportionate danger they face interacting with police. Likewise, cyclists are disproportionately at risk of serious harm while on the road. Not that complicated. Black people are 'whining' because they have legitimate concerns for their safety. Cyclists do as well. And the laws are written in such a way that blacks/cyclists deaths can be easily swept under the rug. Stop whining is not helpful advice. It means shut up. Wow. Late night rant, perhaps I should have run as the Republican candidate for POTUS.
    - lpr22 10y ago
      They are not the same in any kind of way. If you think that people getting murdered because of the color of their skin by agents acting under color of authority is equivalent to saying that cyclists shouldn't be shamed for acting unsafely and possibly causing accidents, injuries, or death because bikes are not cars, all I can think is that I feel as sorry for you as I do for the #alllivesmatter people. In this instance, stop whining is not advice, it's in response to people thinking that for their own narcissistic reasons, it's okay to jeapordize the safety of others. That includes the cars that park in bike lanes as well as the bicyclists who blow through stop signs.

baddox 10y ago

I think that's a pretty awful argument. Obviously different traffic violations in different vehicles carry different safety risks. But I would say that there are broad classes of traffic violations that are deserving of roughly equal social stigma, and I think running a stop sign in a populated area is one of them. A bicycle is absolutely capable of seriously injuring or killing a pedestrian, or causing a larger accident among other vehicles and automobiles. Yes, all else being equal, a car will do more damage than a bike, but it's not enough of a difference for me to react with noticeably different levels of disdain. Surely you don't tie your level of disdain linearly to the mass of the vehicle. Is an SUV running a stop sign twice as bad as a compact car running a stop sign?

orbitingpluto 10y ago
> Is an SUV running a stop sign twice as bad as a compact car running a stop sign? That's such a willfully stupid response. Compare these: Bike:Compact:SUV to pelletgun:handgun:rifle Morever, did you read the first thing that I said? "Before I get all the hate I have to say of course cyclists should obey the laws." Thank you for adding NOTHING to the conversation except for demonstrating the whacked out stupidity that is the core problem here. Your kind argues that we have to obey the same laws as motorists while forcing us into the gutter. "Separate but equal?"
- baddox 10y ago
  > Compare these: Bike:Compact:SUV to pelletgun:handgun:rifle Like I said, a bicycle is very capable of severely injuring or killing a pedestrian, which is why I group it together with automobiles. I'm not familiar with how powerful pellet guns are, so I don't know how that analogy applies. I suspect they are at least capable of causing severe eye injury, and I would encourage the exact same precautionary behavior with pellet guns as with handguns and rifles (trigger discipline, don't point at people, etc.). I guess I'm a little confused by what point you're trying to make. If your preface was intended to invalidate everything you wrote after it, then it's my mistake for trying to do the same.
  - 10y ago

jdavis703 10y ago

The amount of times I see a cyclist blast through a stop sign at full speed is about the same as I see a car blatantly run a red light -- maybe once a month. The vast majority of cyclists rolling through stop signs seem to roll through them at about the same pace as cars do.