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Ferguson involved both protests and riots. More people were involved in the former than the latter. Quoting M. L. King's "The Other America": > These conditio

by dalke 10y ago

Ferguson involved both protests and riots. More people were involved in the former than the latter. Quoting M. L. King's "The Other America": > These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity. - http://www.gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/ http://www.gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/ I can expect the police to not yell out "Bring it, all you fucking animals! Bring it!".

GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
Well, let's be honest, justice and humanity is only possible in an atmosphere of respect for law and relative tranquillity. Justice has seldom been found at the head of a mob.
- dalke 10y ago
  Or, to be honest, on a gunboat? Justice has even less seldom been found when the police, government, and court system have little respect for a political minority.
- musha68k 10y ago
  You are not wrong in general but for cases like these maybe try to see it more as a "thrown exception" where as per the MLK quote above, the base "promises of freedom and justice have not been met".
  - GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
    It's not a simple problem, true. But I stand by my belief that riots are simply going to provoke a more powerful backlash in opposition to the rioters.
    - dalke 10y ago
      The Stonewall riots seem to have lead to long-term success. What better alternative would you have suggested than to riot? The Zoot Suit Riots had the opposite effect from what you describe. Some of the police joined in on the riot against young Latino males, and there wasn't a powerful backlash against the rioters. The riots in Romania in 1989 provoked a more powerful backlash. The government eventually lost. That makes it sound like things aren't as simple as you describe.
- empath75 10y ago
  The police started the lawlessness.
  - GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
    That is arguable, at best.
jbmorgado 10y ago
So, black people looting black people stores is a protest against the white system? I truly appreciate the huge mental gymnastics going on there.
- dalke 10y ago
  Most protests are made of a mix of people. Many do so peacefully, including those whose actions might be illegal, as in cases of civil disobedience. Some are angry, and express their anger through violence. Some feel that despite a lifetime of struggle and anger, peaceful means don't seem to be working. Some feel the only way to change the system is to tear it down and start over again. It's easy to do a web search and find people saying things like http://www.amerika.org/social-reality/the-revolution-has-failed-tear-it-down-and-start-over/ http://www.amerika.org/social-reality/the-revolution-has-fai... : > Do your part — get out there and help tear [liberalism] down. If it’s part of this social fabric, destroy it. Debunk it. Subvert it. Vandalize it. Overthrow it. For some, there is power in destruction, when there is powerlessness otherwise. Still others are opportunists. They see a protest and decide to profit from it, or simply vandalize and loot for the lulz. Unless there is a powerful internal leader, as there was with MLK, it can be hard to figure out who is who during a protest. It can be all too easy to look at the worst and attribute their actions to the whole. Which you appear to have done.
  - jbmorgado 10y ago
    > And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. All nice and dandy if it weren't for you quoting this as a part of your justification for the unjustifiable. It's not about attributing the violent behaviour of a minority to a group (like you are now trying to change the discourse), it's praising that violent minority behaviour as a fight against the system as you just did.
    - dalke 10y ago
      MLK was neither praising nor justifying those who riot. Here's the context before and after the quote I gave earlier: > ... it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. ... > And so we must still face the fact that our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nations winters of delay. As long as justice is postponed we always stand on the verge of these darker nights of social disruption. The question now, is whether America is prepared to do something massively, affirmatively and forthrightly about the great problem we face in the area of race and the problem which can bring the curtain of doom down on American civilization if it is not solved. Nor do I praise nor justify riots. The goal should be to understand why riots occur, in order to avoid having them in the future - and hopefully by improving justice and civil rights, vs. some of the more horrific solutions that humans have tried before.

by dalke 10y ago

GunboatDiplomat 10y ago

Well, let's be honest, justice and humanity is only possible in an atmosphere of respect for law and relative tranquillity. Justice has seldom been found at the head of a mob.

dalke 10y ago
Or, to be honest, on a gunboat? Justice has even less seldom been found when the police, government, and court system have little respect for a political minority.
musha68k 10y ago
You are not wrong in general but for cases like these maybe try to see it more as a "thrown exception" where as per the MLK quote above, the base "promises of freedom and justice have not been met".
- GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
  It's not a simple problem, true. But I stand by my belief that riots are simply going to provoke a more powerful backlash in opposition to the rioters.
  - dalke 10y ago
    The Stonewall riots seem to have lead to long-term success. What better alternative would you have suggested than to riot? The Zoot Suit Riots had the opposite effect from what you describe. Some of the police joined in on the riot against young Latino males, and there wasn't a powerful backlash against the rioters. The riots in Romania in 1989 provoked a more powerful backlash. The government eventually lost. That makes it sound like things aren't as simple as you describe.
empath75 10y ago
The police started the lawlessness.
- GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
  That is arguable, at best.

jbmorgado 10y ago

So, black people looting black people stores is a protest against the white system? I truly appreciate the huge mental gymnastics going on there.

dalke 10y ago
Most protests are made of a mix of people. Many do so peacefully, including those whose actions might be illegal, as in cases of civil disobedience. Some are angry, and express their anger through violence. Some feel that despite a lifetime of struggle and anger, peaceful means don't seem to be working. Some feel the only way to change the system is to tear it down and start over again. It's easy to do a web search and find people saying things like http://www.amerika.org/social-reality/the-revolution-has-failed-tear-it-down-and-start-over/ http://www.amerika.org/social-reality/the-revolution-has-fai... : > Do your part — get out there and help tear [liberalism] down. If it’s part of this social fabric, destroy it. Debunk it. Subvert it. Vandalize it. Overthrow it. For some, there is power in destruction, when there is powerlessness otherwise. Still others are opportunists. They see a protest and decide to profit from it, or simply vandalize and loot for the lulz. Unless there is a powerful internal leader, as there was with MLK, it can be hard to figure out who is who during a protest. It can be all too easy to look at the worst and attribute their actions to the whole. Which you appear to have done.
- jbmorgado 10y ago
  > And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. All nice and dandy if it weren't for you quoting this as a part of your justification for the unjustifiable. It's not about attributing the violent behaviour of a minority to a group (like you are now trying to change the discourse), it's praising that violent minority behaviour as a fight against the system as you just did.
  - dalke 10y ago
    MLK was neither praising nor justifying those who riot. Here's the context before and after the quote I gave earlier: > ... it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. ... > And so we must still face the fact that our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nations winters of delay. As long as justice is postponed we always stand on the verge of these darker nights of social disruption. The question now, is whether America is prepared to do something massively, affirmatively and forthrightly about the great problem we face in the area of race and the problem which can bring the curtain of doom down on American civilization if it is not solved. Nor do I praise nor justify riots. The goal should be to understand why riots occur, in order to avoid having them in the future - and hopefully by improving justice and civil rights, vs. some of the more horrific solutions that humans have tried before.