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"Obviously PDFs can be online. Are you implying some clunky proprietary webapp that must allow me to share something?" No, I'm suggesting that the web is an op
by SwellJoe 10y ago
"Obviously PDFs can be online. Are you implying some clunky proprietary webapp that must allow me to share something?"
No, I'm suggesting that the web is an open standard, available to more people than any computing platform in history, that can do everything PDF can do, and incomparably more. If there are workflows that rely on PDF, the workflow is probably wrong, and could be improved by a web standards based implementation.
Passing around files is the least common denominator, the stop-gap solution until something good comes along, it's not the optimal solution where we decide, "OK, that's perfect! Let's keep doing it this way for 20 years."
"You're either saying that CAD programs should print-to-file as vector-perfect HTML (why?), or that local programs should be deprecated?"
I'm saying neither. That's why we have SVG. All browsers render it. It is a powerful and pretty well-designed and well-defined vector-based image format that has universal availability across nearly any device. PDF may be powerful but it is not particularly well-designed or particularly well-defined (as evidenced by the lack of good non-Adobe implementations, and as evidenced by how many elements of the PDF format have had to be riddled out by experimentation, rather than merely following a spec).
"Is the PDF support on nonfree platforms really that bad that it's created such hate for the whole format? It sounds like that failing is better attributed to the operating system itself."
I don't know what you're asking here. I primarily use Linux and have for 20+ years. PDF support on free platforms is historically worse than on Mac or Windows, though it's kinda clunky on every OS.
PDF served its purpose, and was good for its time and place (I recall with great excitement when OpenOffice first got PDF export that worked, and it was the feature that convinced a number of people I knew at the time to switch from MS Office, which didn't yet have PDF export without additional software). It's just done, now, and it's a good time to move on.
- mindslight 10y agoI too had plenty of problems using Free PDF viewers a decade ago. But these days, I can't recall the last time I saw something that rendered wrong. To me, on Debian, it's a format that "just works". Even nicer than HTML which either wants to commandeer an already-running heavyweight browser and possibly load arbitrary unknown baggage from the Internet, or be half-viewed with lynx. You seem to be primary arguing for replacing it with SVG, which probably has merit. But honestly I'm just not invested enough in choosing the "perfect" format to weigh one versus the other. You're effectively saying the two have similar functionality but for a lack of a format PDF spec, but as PDF currently functions that argument is quite abstract. Furthermore, why doesn't Firefox's "Print to file" have SVG as an output option? It's kind of hard to adopt a different format when software that's supposedly directly geared for it doesn't have the option to use it. > Passing around files is the least common denominator, the stop-gap solution until something good comes along Erm sure. But that "something good" certainly isn't centralized web silos and nouveau proprietary software marketed as "open web". So we'll continue with files until some feasible user-centric replacement technology is on the horizon.
- einr 10y agoYour comments look a lot more like someone on a personal vendetta against PDF, for whatever reason, than an argument grounded in reality. There are people whose usecases are entirely different from yours, who do not want PDF to die because it is immensely useful. I work in printing and graphic design, and PDF is irreplacable. It's literally the only dependable vector graphics interchange format that exists. Would you have us going back to passing around zip files of PageMaker documents? SVG is a laughable train wreck for any use where it's imperative that files look the same across devices, media and apps. I've yet to encounter a non-trivial SVG file that renders exactly the same across, say, Chrome/FF/IE or Illustrator/CorelDRAW/Inkscape. I don't know whether the format is trash or all implementations are, but the end user experience is awful either way. Now, none of this means it's a good idea to throw random PDF files at the web when HTML would have worked as well or better. If your argument would have stopped at that I would have agreed with you.
- SwellJoe 10y agoThat's all fine. I don't care about that environment or use case; it's not harming anyone. I'm talking about PDF being considered an important part of web browsers. That's what I think should end. I was unaware of the issues you bring up about SVG; it's not a problem I've seen in a while (though I remember it being an issue many years ago going back and forth between Inkscape and Illustrator, and of course browsers had awful SVG support for a long while). But, professionals in specialist industries can use whatever tools they like, without making the rest of the world carry around that baggage. So, carry on using PDF for this purpose, just don't ask every browser to support it. It shouldn't be a part of the web anymore, even if PDF still has a place in pre-press, or something.
- wila 10y agoIf somebody sends a pdf invoice then i can save the invoice. An html invoice on the web needs to be printed to paper or pdf in order to be part of a financial administration. If it stays on a webserver, the document likely dissappears.
- wila 10y agoIf somebody sends a pdf invoice then i can save the invoice. An html invoice on the web needs to be printed to paper or pdf in order to be part of a financial administration. If it stays on a webserver, the document likely dissappears.
- chris_wot 10y agoPDF is an open standard and format.