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I wish more of the world considered PDF and Flash to be obsolete/deprecated technologies. The amount of energy wasted on these rotten old techs is such a shame.

I wish more of the world considered PDF and Flash to be obsolete/deprecated technologies. The amount of energy wasted on these rotten old techs is such a shame. That said, if someone has to do it, I felt better about PDF.js than I feel about the Chrome implementation, for a few reasons. Higher level language means less surface area for vulnerabilities (though I guess it's never been perfect, either). Being a huge and complex project in JavaScript means it works the JS engine and renderer in the browser pretty hard and can provide a great test suite for the browser itself. Being JavaScript also means improvements in the VM (whether performance or security) automatically improve the PDF renderer (though I guess PDFium is quite a bit faster already, so that's less of a benefit on the PDF.js side). Honestly, though, these are dead technologies, to me. I use them only when absolutely necessary. I don't have Flash installed on any of my machines and have no intention to do so. I do have to look at PDFs now and then, but I don't like it. I'm tired of people slapping the paper skeuomorph onto web pages. Web pages are better than paper, in every dimension, so stop imitating paper! Having to load up a buggy, quirky, weird-looking, plugin to view the damned thing is just adding insult to injury. So...let'em die. But, I guess if Mozilla feels like they need to keep providing it for now, I'm fine with them doing whatever they have to do to make it cost as little as possible. Mozilla has wasted enough money over the years on weird projects; I guess supporting Flash and PDF count as another one. (Even though I like PDF.js a lot, for making PDF less of an asshole.)

MildlySerious 10y ago
Honest question, if PDF is obsolete, what technology/format was it made obsolete by that is not dependent on the cloud like Google Docs? What lightweight format is there that I can export my .doc's to that I can send to my clients?
- SwellJoe 10y ago
  We're speaking completely different languages here, I'm afraid. I don't "send .docs to my clients". I haven't opened Word in a decade or more. I occasionally share a Google Doc with people I'm working with, but only for the collaboration features, not because I want them to see what a nice font I selected for the headers. I recently removed PDF export of invoices from my company shopping cart, and converted it to use an HTML document instead; I spent a couple of days of my labor removing PDF functionality. Same style sheet, looks the same when printed, provides the same information, but no external tools needed. PDF is an anti-pattern, and if I'm working with someone and they send me a PDF I instantly like them less (except in the very rare circumstance that it's necessary to print the thing, like signing documents, though even that can be mostly automated away with tech). So, I'll answer your question with my own: What are you sending your clients in PDF? Why? Why isn't it online yet? Why are you manually creating these docs, whatever they are, and emailing them to someone? I switched payment providers because my last one mailed me a PDF form, and asked me to sign and send it back. I said "no thanks", and signed up with someone who lives in this century. There's very little that people do with PDF that can't be done better some other way.
  - mindslight 10y ago
    > What are you sending your clients in PDF? Why? Why isn't it online yet? What do you mean by "online"? Obviously PDFs can be online. Are you implying some clunky proprietary webapp that must allow me to share something? Let's say some project is going to post a schematic and I'd like to read it. I'd much rather grab that in a PDF than the native format of whatever CAD program they used to capture it (although obviously the latter is necessary for editing). You're either saying that CAD programs should print-to-file as vector-perfect HTML (why?), or that local programs should be deprecated? To me, PDF is just a nicer page-precise layout compared to PS. And for many locally-saved documents, I'd rather not even involve my web browser - just a simple evince <file>. Is the PDF support on nonfree platforms really that bad that it's created such hate for the whole format? It sounds like that failing is better attributed to the operating system itself.
    - SwellJoe 10y ago
      "Obviously PDFs can be online. Are you implying some clunky proprietary webapp that must allow me to share something?" No, I'm suggesting that the web is an open standard, available to more people than any computing platform in history, that can do everything PDF can do, and incomparably more. If there are workflows that rely on PDF, the workflow is probably wrong, and could be improved by a web standards based implementation. Passing around files is the least common denominator, the stop-gap solution until something good comes along, it's not the optimal solution where we decide, "OK, that's perfect! Let's keep doing it this way for 20 years." "You're either saying that CAD programs should print-to-file as vector-perfect HTML (why?), or that local programs should be deprecated?" I'm saying neither. That's why we have SVG. All browsers render it. It is a powerful and pretty well-designed and well-defined vector-based image format that has universal availability across nearly any device. PDF may be powerful but it is not particularly well-designed or particularly well-defined (as evidenced by the lack of good non-Adobe implementations, and as evidenced by how many elements of the PDF format have had to be riddled out by experimentation, rather than merely following a spec). "Is the PDF support on nonfree platforms really that bad that it's created such hate for the whole format? It sounds like that failing is better attributed to the operating system itself." I don't know what you're asking here. I primarily use Linux and have for 20+ years. PDF support on free platforms is historically worse than on Mac or Windows, though it's kinda clunky on every OS. PDF served its purpose, and was good for its time and place (I recall with great excitement when OpenOffice first got PDF export that worked, and it was the feature that convinced a number of people I knew at the time to switch from MS Office, which didn't yet have PDF export without additional software). It's just done, now, and it's a good time to move on.
chris_wot 10y ago
When I can read a book from a webpage with the same fidelity as a book in PDF, let's talk further.
- SwellJoe 10y ago
  My ebook reader (a Kindle) uses an HTML-based format. No ebook reader I know of uses PDF. My favorite websites to read are not PDF. "Fidelity" is not important to me...being easy to read on the device I'm reading it on is what is important to me. In fact, I find it painful to read a PDF on my computer, whereas I read tons of documentation on web pages without trouble. Finally, a web page today can look like pretty much anything, including a "book" layout. PDF isn't necessary or useful. Fonts can be embedded, styling can be done down to the pixel level, scalable illustrations can be embedded in SVG, etc. The only reason people don't lay out stuff on the web like a PDF is because it's not as functional as treating it like a web page.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    I have genuinely never experienced this, even on a Kindle. The books I read have pleasant layouts, which I feel is only because the designer works on a fixed page. That said, I have been reading material from http://www.accountingcoach.com http://www.accountingcoach.com and the author has got good design on pretty much all browsers I've used, including my iPhone so I suppose it can be done.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    > "No ebook reader I know of uses PDF." Odd. I'd thought PDF support in that market was widespread. Perhaps Kindle is an outlier.
    - colin_mccabe 10y ago
      The Kindle does have PDF support and has for many years. However, people rarely use PDF support on small-screen devices, and nearly all Kindles are small-screen.
    - 10y ago
simooooo 10y ago
It's not the web imitating paper. It's paper documents designed for paper being distributed via the web.

MildlySerious 10y ago

Honest question, if PDF is obsolete, what technology/format was it made obsolete by that is not dependent on the cloud like Google Docs? What lightweight format is there that I can export my .doc's to that I can send to my clients?

SwellJoe 10y ago
We're speaking completely different languages here, I'm afraid. I don't "send .docs to my clients". I haven't opened Word in a decade or more. I occasionally share a Google Doc with people I'm working with, but only for the collaboration features, not because I want them to see what a nice font I selected for the headers. I recently removed PDF export of invoices from my company shopping cart, and converted it to use an HTML document instead; I spent a couple of days of my labor removing PDF functionality. Same style sheet, looks the same when printed, provides the same information, but no external tools needed. PDF is an anti-pattern, and if I'm working with someone and they send me a PDF I instantly like them less (except in the very rare circumstance that it's necessary to print the thing, like signing documents, though even that can be mostly automated away with tech). So, I'll answer your question with my own: What are you sending your clients in PDF? Why? Why isn't it online yet? Why are you manually creating these docs, whatever they are, and emailing them to someone? I switched payment providers because my last one mailed me a PDF form, and asked me to sign and send it back. I said "no thanks", and signed up with someone who lives in this century. There's very little that people do with PDF that can't be done better some other way.
- mindslight 10y ago
  > What are you sending your clients in PDF? Why? Why isn't it online yet? What do you mean by "online"? Obviously PDFs can be online. Are you implying some clunky proprietary webapp that must allow me to share something? Let's say some project is going to post a schematic and I'd like to read it. I'd much rather grab that in a PDF than the native format of whatever CAD program they used to capture it (although obviously the latter is necessary for editing). You're either saying that CAD programs should print-to-file as vector-perfect HTML (why?), or that local programs should be deprecated? To me, PDF is just a nicer page-precise layout compared to PS. And for many locally-saved documents, I'd rather not even involve my web browser - just a simple evince <file>. Is the PDF support on nonfree platforms really that bad that it's created such hate for the whole format? It sounds like that failing is better attributed to the operating system itself.
  - SwellJoe 10y ago
    "Obviously PDFs can be online. Are you implying some clunky proprietary webapp that must allow me to share something?" No, I'm suggesting that the web is an open standard, available to more people than any computing platform in history, that can do everything PDF can do, and incomparably more. If there are workflows that rely on PDF, the workflow is probably wrong, and could be improved by a web standards based implementation. Passing around files is the least common denominator, the stop-gap solution until something good comes along, it's not the optimal solution where we decide, "OK, that's perfect! Let's keep doing it this way for 20 years." "You're either saying that CAD programs should print-to-file as vector-perfect HTML (why?), or that local programs should be deprecated?" I'm saying neither. That's why we have SVG. All browsers render it. It is a powerful and pretty well-designed and well-defined vector-based image format that has universal availability across nearly any device. PDF may be powerful but it is not particularly well-designed or particularly well-defined (as evidenced by the lack of good non-Adobe implementations, and as evidenced by how many elements of the PDF format have had to be riddled out by experimentation, rather than merely following a spec). "Is the PDF support on nonfree platforms really that bad that it's created such hate for the whole format? It sounds like that failing is better attributed to the operating system itself." I don't know what you're asking here. I primarily use Linux and have for 20+ years. PDF support on free platforms is historically worse than on Mac or Windows, though it's kinda clunky on every OS. PDF served its purpose, and was good for its time and place (I recall with great excitement when OpenOffice first got PDF export that worked, and it was the feature that convinced a number of people I knew at the time to switch from MS Office, which didn't yet have PDF export without additional software). It's just done, now, and it's a good time to move on.

chris_wot 10y ago

When I can read a book from a webpage with the same fidelity as a book in PDF, let's talk further.

SwellJoe 10y ago
My ebook reader (a Kindle) uses an HTML-based format. No ebook reader I know of uses PDF. My favorite websites to read are not PDF. "Fidelity" is not important to me...being easy to read on the device I'm reading it on is what is important to me. In fact, I find it painful to read a PDF on my computer, whereas I read tons of documentation on web pages without trouble. Finally, a web page today can look like pretty much anything, including a "book" layout. PDF isn't necessary or useful. Fonts can be embedded, styling can be done down to the pixel level, scalable illustrations can be embedded in SVG, etc. The only reason people don't lay out stuff on the web like a PDF is because it's not as functional as treating it like a web page.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  I have genuinely never experienced this, even on a Kindle. The books I read have pleasant layouts, which I feel is only because the designer works on a fixed page. That said, I have been reading material from http://www.accountingcoach.com http://www.accountingcoach.com and the author has got good design on pretty much all browsers I've used, including my iPhone so I suppose it can be done.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "No ebook reader I know of uses PDF." Odd. I'd thought PDF support in that market was widespread. Perhaps Kindle is an outlier.
  - colin_mccabe 10y ago
    The Kindle does have PDF support and has for many years. However, people rarely use PDF support on small-screen devices, and nearly all Kindles are small-screen.
  - 10y ago

simooooo 10y ago

It's not the web imitating paper. It's paper documents designed for paper being distributed via the web.