6 ms·

It does matter. Are we going to let one basement dwelling loser ruin the internet as a whole for everyone? Are we going to empower anonymous commenters to pit p

by smokeyj 10y ago

It does matter. Are we going to let one basement dwelling loser ruin the internet as a whole for everyone? Are we going to empower anonymous commenters to pit people against each other? It may be ignorant of me to suggest blowing these trolls off and not paying them attention - but it isn't insincere or sexist. I'd like to hear your solution.

tptacek 10y ago
Apparently: yes. That's what we're saying when we say that a solution to this problem is that women should stop taking credit for their work, their writing, and their opinions.
- smokeyj 10y ago
  That's not what I'm saying at all. More like, ignore the trolls and keep doing your thing. I know "growing thicker skin" is not the ideal solution - but what else is there?
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Not pretending that pen names are a valid solution would be a really great start. See: comment rooting this thread.
    - khedoros1 10y ago
      It's not a valid solution. Is it an improvement to the current situation, or a step on the path to finding a solution? If not, what are you suggesting as the next step to make things better? Because I don't feel like I know enough about the nature and motivation of the harassment to make a useful suggestion.
  - Mz 10y ago
    http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-gender-parity-online.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-ge...
  - mindslight 10y ago
    "The discussion" really needs details on any concrete proposals for combating this problem. This is not a social problem - harassers are a tiny minority. The fundamental problem is managing fan-in. Since we've all become micro-celebrities, we've all got miniature versions of the problems famous people have always had but without the resources to protect ourselves (PR agents, bodyguards, etc). It behooves the people proclaiming "something must be done" to detail what exactly they'd like to see happen. Otherwise we just have an emotional mob seeking any convenient scapegoat. Specific constructive ideas appear to be lacking, and in their place vague allusions and shouting down of people who do concretely point out how individuals can try to protect themselves. I think what most "detractors" are worried about is an alignment with the government desire to remove anonymity from the Internet, which seems to be implied as some kind of solution even though it should be a complete non-starter.
    - Mz 10y ago
      And when someone does talk -- routinely -- about constructive action that can be taken in the here and now, it is largely ignored. You can start here for some of what I have to say on the topic of how to promote gender parity online: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-gender-parity-online.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-ge... Yes, that same link is posted elsewhere in this discussion. So far, it has gotten zero upvotes (or downvotes) or replies. Because, as usual, it is getting mostly ignored. People making the kinds of comment you have just made seem to not actually want solutions. They seem to want a convenient excuse for dismissing the criticism entirely. I have been working hard to bring solutions, not complaints, for quite a few years. It is mostly ignored. If you actually want real change, you could start by paying more attention to the things I suggest, acting on them and promoting my writing. But I imagine that won't happen at all.
      - mindslight 10y ago
        I did read that in your prior comment [0]. And I fully agree. But I will say, despite my agreement with it, that post of yours does not actually address this current subject of outrage. It is true that one component of harassment is the pervasive social attitudes held by the majority, and thus can be changed through social integration. But concentrated harassment also comes from a small minority that are either deliberately trolling, or so socially mistuned as to use a comments section as if it were a bar. All of the outreach and awareness is not going to change this latter group - think of Pascal's Wager for a date. It's not that I don't "want" a solution to the latter. It's that I don't see how one, as envisioned, can exist. Education and awareness can shrink the quantity. Centralized sites with heavy moderation can shrink the quantity [1] [2]. Maybe even personal filtering-assistants could shrink the quantity. But at some level of fan-in it is still going to be present and require that people build their own mental defense. [0] FWIW, I clicked the up arrow on that comment, and this one as well. But my votes don't actually count because it was determined that I upvote "low quality" comments - a year or two ago, anti-circlejerk comments were forced to really snipe. [1] You have a post about rejecting offers for dates on HN. I don't believe I have ever seen such a proposal on HN (and I'm showdead=yes). I'm not refuting your experience, just contrasting - an event can be objectively extremely rare, yet still quite personal, intense, and resentment-forming. [2] Furthermore, this ignores alternative avenues of contact - I don't think Medium passed along all this harassment itself. Which is why ambiguous "something" can't not imply some greater control over the wider Internet.

by smokeyj 10y ago

tptacek 10y ago

Apparently: yes. That's what we're saying when we say that a solution to this problem is that women should stop taking credit for their work, their writing, and their opinions.

smokeyj 10y ago
That's not what I'm saying at all. More like, ignore the trolls and keep doing your thing. I know "growing thicker skin" is not the ideal solution - but what else is there?
- tptacek 10y ago
  Not pretending that pen names are a valid solution would be a really great start. See: comment rooting this thread.
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    It's not a valid solution. Is it an improvement to the current situation, or a step on the path to finding a solution? If not, what are you suggesting as the next step to make things better? Because I don't feel like I know enough about the nature and motivation of the harassment to make a useful suggestion.
- Mz 10y ago
  http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-gender-parity-online.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-ge...
- mindslight 10y ago
  "The discussion" really needs details on any concrete proposals for combating this problem. This is not a social problem - harassers are a tiny minority. The fundamental problem is managing fan-in. Since we've all become micro-celebrities, we've all got miniature versions of the problems famous people have always had but without the resources to protect ourselves (PR agents, bodyguards, etc). It behooves the people proclaiming "something must be done" to detail what exactly they'd like to see happen. Otherwise we just have an emotional mob seeking any convenient scapegoat. Specific constructive ideas appear to be lacking, and in their place vague allusions and shouting down of people who do concretely point out how individuals can try to protect themselves. I think what most "detractors" are worried about is an alignment with the government desire to remove anonymity from the Internet, which seems to be implied as some kind of solution even though it should be a complete non-starter.
  - Mz 10y ago
    And when someone does talk -- routinely -- about constructive action that can be taken in the here and now, it is largely ignored. You can start here for some of what I have to say on the topic of how to promote gender parity online: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-gender-parity-online.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-ge... Yes, that same link is posted elsewhere in this discussion. So far, it has gotten zero upvotes (or downvotes) or replies. Because, as usual, it is getting mostly ignored. People making the kinds of comment you have just made seem to not actually want solutions. They seem to want a convenient excuse for dismissing the criticism entirely. I have been working hard to bring solutions, not complaints, for quite a few years. It is mostly ignored. If you actually want real change, you could start by paying more attention to the things I suggest, acting on them and promoting my writing. But I imagine that won't happen at all.
    - mindslight 10y ago
      I did read that in your prior comment [0]. And I fully agree. But I will say, despite my agreement with it, that post of yours does not actually address this current subject of outrage. It is true that one component of harassment is the pervasive social attitudes held by the majority, and thus can be changed through social integration. But concentrated harassment also comes from a small minority that are either deliberately trolling, or so socially mistuned as to use a comments section as if it were a bar. All of the outreach and awareness is not going to change this latter group - think of Pascal's Wager for a date. It's not that I don't "want" a solution to the latter. It's that I don't see how one, as envisioned, can exist. Education and awareness can shrink the quantity. Centralized sites with heavy moderation can shrink the quantity [1] [2]. Maybe even personal filtering-assistants could shrink the quantity. But at some level of fan-in it is still going to be present and require that people build their own mental defense. [0] FWIW, I clicked the up arrow on that comment, and this one as well. But my votes don't actually count because it was determined that I upvote "low quality" comments - a year or two ago, anti-circlejerk comments were forced to really snipe. [1] You have a post about rejecting offers for dates on HN. I don't believe I have ever seen such a proposal on HN (and I'm showdead=yes). I'm not refuting your experience, just contrasting - an event can be objectively extremely rare, yet still quite personal, intense, and resentment-forming. [2] Furthermore, this ignores alternative avenues of contact - I don't think Medium passed along all this harassment itself. Which is why ambiguous "something" can't not imply some greater control over the wider Internet.