5 ms·

Steve Jobs: Apple owns the trademark on 'Pad'

10 points by ukdm 17y ago

lispm 17y ago
Anyone defending Steve? Anyone with a Stockholm syndrome?
- jws 17y ago
  I'll take a crack.[1] … a trademark is a distinctive sign or indicator used … to identify that the products … with which the trademark appears originate from a unique source…[wikipedia:trademark] The developer clearly chose their name to associate their product with the source of the iPad and bask in that trademark owner's glow. The angry mob here is vomiting "*pad" strawmen, but "ContactPad" is not a generic word. Notice the capital 'P', notice the absence in any dictionary. Now google "apple trademark pod" and tell me the developer shouldn't have seen this coming a mile away. [1] I have great sympathy for anyone that has to name a product. In the past I've had to resort to a wordlike sequence of 5 letters for a major product because the lawyers kept waving us off of (and billing us for) anything we could think of that was the slightest bit descriptive. We even got waved off of a particular kind of quark because there was a software firm half a world away using it in their name.
  - jrockway 17y ago
    So is the default editor on Windows violating a trademark?
    - jws 17y ago
      No. That isn't how trademarks work. Your trademark protects you inside a specific field of endeavor where a consumer might be confused about the source of a product. If you use a word in good faith for its primary meaning and no consumer confusion is likely to result then you are fine. On the other hand, if you wrap yourself up to look like you are associated with something you know your customer has already purchased and likes, then you will have a problem. In between lie lawyers.
  - confuzatron 17y ago
    "ContactPad" is not a generic word. But is it an Apple trademark? You are right in one way - developers should know by now that if they venture into the AppStore, they can expect Apple to destroy their business without hesitation, whenever they feel like it.
    - jws 17y ago
      A infringes B and C owns A implies C owns B? That would be novel doctrine. I wonder, does Apple have app renaming support? When the user updates, does it pull the newly named app or does the app just die and the user have to find the new one? If the app updates, the name changes a little and the icon stays the same then it isn't too bad. If the app goes away that is devastating.
  - gjm11 17y ago
    > strawmen Speaking of strawmen: I don't see anyone claiming that "ContactPad" is a generic word. What I see is the claim that it's a non-generic name made from generic elements none of which is owned by Apple, containing no bits that are owned by Apple. (That doesn't mean Apple aren't in the right here. I don't know whether they are. You can certainly infringe on a trademark without using the exact mark, and if someone brought out a tablet computer called the EyePad then the absence of the "i" would be no defence. But "ContactPad"? "JournalPad"? Not being a lawyer, I have no more than a guess. But my guess is that Apple's trademark on "iPad" is not in fact enough to make it illegal for someone else to sell a program that runs on an iPad and has "pad" in its name.) > tell me the developer shouldn't have seen this coming a mile away. Now, that I can certainly agree with. (And, also, of course it doesn't matter whether Apple have any sort of credible trademark claim; they can control what gets sold on the App Store without one.) > a particular kind of quark The quarks are: up, down, top, bottom, charmed, strange. (For a while T,B were called truth and beauty). Those are all common English words. Why would the fact that they're also names of quarks stop your lawyers worrying about them? -- Or do you mean that your product was called something like BottomQuark? You do realise that there's a really quite big software company whose name is Quark, right? Or were you talking about soft cheese?
    - jws 17y ago
      My physics eluded me. It was actually a pair of quarks.
  - brg 17y ago
    Could the basic Windows utility "Notepad" be ported to the "IPad" due to naming conventions?
markkoberlein 17y ago
"In the end, it really doesn't matter, because in Apple's little App Store world, they don't even need to pretend they have a trademark. They've given themselves every legal right to pull an app for no reason at all." Crazy yes, shocking no. They did the same with the "Pod" in iPod. If you develop for Apple's devices you play by their rules. I wish Apple would embrace developers and their apps because they are the reason why people have stayed with the iPhone.
- tuxychandru 17y ago
  What makes this worse is the fact that "pad" is a very commonly used word both within and outside technology circles. Notepad, Launchpad, Scratchpad, etc. This makes me wonder how they can even claim rights on a term so widely used already in the same domain. As the article notes they don't list "pad" as a trademark in their own web page!
  - markkoberlein 17y ago
    I agree, I don't think that Apple will go after products that have nothing to do with the iPad. Unless you make an accessory or app for the iPad I think your safe. However, it would be fun to watch Apple go after Notepad and ask Microsoft to change the name because they now own "Pad".
    - tuxychandru 17y ago
      That would be funny and indeed is of very low probability. But my point was how can a company claim rights on a term already in wide use within the same domain/industry. Trademarks and patents are getting weirder everyday.
      - Vivtek 17y ago
        They don't have a trademark on the word "pad". What they have is the ability to deny people access to the only market available for the iPhone. The language they use is slanted towards making that seem legitimate, but in the end, this is not a "trademark" issue in the legal sense, it's Apple owning the company store.
confuzatron 17y ago
Steve's not talking about a US trademark. Trademark law is different in the Democratic People's Republic of AppStoria. I'm picturing a 'Being John Malkovich'-esque court scene, where everyone except the plaintiff is Steve Jobs. "Case Closed!"
Tichy 17y ago
What the frak? I guess over time we'll just have to invent new words for everything, because so many words are forbidden.
- jws 17y ago
  Did you think Solutia and Cingular were first choices?
elblanco 17y ago
"Says Jobs, on his personal heliPAD that floats on a private lake like a lilly PAD, while eating an APPLE he's slicing on top of a PAD of paper, standing on PADded shoes, while his dog limps on an infected PAD nearby, while listening to 80's synth -pop music using string PADs, while PADding his bank account with iPad revenue."
crad 17y ago
What's interesting, unless I'm missing something, Siemens owns the trademark on iPad: Word Mark IPAD Goods and Services IC 007. US 013 019 021 023 031 034 035. G & S: ENGINES, NOT FOR LAND VEHICLES; ELECTRIC MOTORS FOR MACHINES AND ELECTRIC STARTER MOTORS, NAMELY, DRIVING GEARS IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: PROGRAMMABLE ELECTRICAL DRIVES FOR CONTROLLING MACHINES USED IN THE FIELD OF MEDICAL, AUTOMOTIVE AND AEROSPACE TECHNOLOGY, BUILDING SERVICES, ENGINEERING AND INDUSTRIAL AUTOMATION; LOW VOLTAGE AND MEDIUM VOLTAGE VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVES FOR CONTROL OF MOTORS Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Trademark Search Facility Classification Code LETTER-3-OR-MORE iPAD Combination of three or more letters as part of the mark SHAPES-MISC Miscellaneous shaped designs Serial Number 79023888 Filing Date March 20, 2006 Current Filing Basis 66A Original Filing Basis 66A Published for Opposition December 11, 2007 Registration Number 3389082 International Registration Number 0885058 Registration Date February 26, 2008 Owner (REGISTRANT) Siemens Aktiengesellschaft Aktiengesellschaft FED REP GERMANY Wittelsbacherplatz 2 80333 München FED REP GERMANY Attorney of Record LAWRENCE E ABELMAN Priority Date February 28, 2006 Description of Mark Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE and Pad: Word Mark PAD Goods and Services IC 007. US 013 019 021 023 031 034 035. G & S: ENGINES, NOT FOR LAND VEHICLES; ELECTRIC MOTORS FOR MACHINES AND ELECTRIC STARTER MOTORS, NAMELY, DRIVING GEARS IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: PROGRAMMABLE ELECTRICAL DRIVES FOR CONTROLLING MACHINES USED IN THE FIELD OF MEDICAL, AUTOMOTIVE AND AEROSPACE TECHNOLOGY, BUILDING SERVICES, ENGINEERING AND INDUSTRIAL AUTOMATION; LOW VOLTAGE AND MEDIUM VOLTAGE VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVES FOR CONTROL OF MOTORS Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Trademark Search Facility Classification Code LETTER-3-OR-MORE PAD Combination of three or more letters as part of the mark Serial Number 79023831 Filing Date March 20, 2006 Current Filing Basis 66A Original Filing Basis 66A Published for Opposition December 11, 2007 Registration Number 3389081 International Registration Number 0884875 Registration Date February 26, 2008 Owner (REGISTRANT) Siemens Aktiengesellschaft Aktiengesellschaft FED REP GERMANY Wittelsbacherplatz 2 80333 München FED REP GERMANY Attorney of Record LAWRENCE E ABELMAN Priority Date February 28, 2006 Description of Mark Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE [Edit: Didn't realize uspto links timeout]
- hussong 17y ago
jrockway 17y ago
jrockway: jrockway owns the trademark on "Fuck Apple".
- mdg 17y ago
  You are lame
AndrewDucker 17y ago
Well, according to a whole bunch of comments recently, this is fine. Steve owns the App Store, he sets the rules. If you want to be allowed in then you have to follow the rules. And keep up to date with them when they change. And be happy to change your apps name, language and design if Steve doesn't like them. That's just the price you pay for being permitted to write Apps for Steve.
maxklein 17y ago
We had the same problem. Launched initial app with pad in the name, it was approved without any problems, but the update was not approved because of the 'Pad' name. But to me it's not a big deal, I just changed it and reuploaded, I doubt having 'pad' in the name caused a big difference in sales. The existing *Pad apps are still in the store.
jcromartie 17y ago
Could someone claim a trademark on "Phone" too? This is ridiculous. I had various app ideas for which a "Pad" suffix would be very appropriate. The form of the device just lends itself to apps that act like a pad of paper.
- Vivtek 17y ago
  Anybody can claim anything they want. In reality, should something go to court, it would quickly be revealed that Apple does not and cannot have a trademark on a word as generic as "pad". But what would you have for it? The court is probably not going to force Apple to put your app in their store. An antitrust class action might be plausible, but that's not what we're talking about when we talk about trademarks. It's misleading on Apple's part to call this a trademark issue.

10 points by ukdm 17y ago

lispm 17y ago

Anyone defending Steve? Anyone with a Stockholm syndrome?

jws 17y ago
I'll take a crack.[1] … a trademark is a distinctive sign or indicator used … to identify that the products … with which the trademark appears originate from a unique source…[wikipedia:trademark] The developer clearly chose their name to associate their product with the source of the iPad and bask in that trademark owner's glow. The angry mob here is vomiting "*pad" strawmen, but "ContactPad" is not a generic word. Notice the capital 'P', notice the absence in any dictionary. Now google "apple trademark pod" and tell me the developer shouldn't have seen this coming a mile away. [1] I have great sympathy for anyone that has to name a product. In the past I've had to resort to a wordlike sequence of 5 letters for a major product because the lawyers kept waving us off of (and billing us for) anything we could think of that was the slightest bit descriptive. We even got waved off of a particular kind of quark because there was a software firm half a world away using it in their name.
- jrockway 17y ago
  So is the default editor on Windows violating a trademark?
  - jws 17y ago
    No. That isn't how trademarks work. Your trademark protects you inside a specific field of endeavor where a consumer might be confused about the source of a product. If you use a word in good faith for its primary meaning and no consumer confusion is likely to result then you are fine. On the other hand, if you wrap yourself up to look like you are associated with something you know your customer has already purchased and likes, then you will have a problem. In between lie lawyers.
- confuzatron 17y ago
  "ContactPad" is not a generic word. But is it an Apple trademark? You are right in one way - developers should know by now that if they venture into the AppStore, they can expect Apple to destroy their business without hesitation, whenever they feel like it.
  - jws 17y ago
    A infringes B and C owns A implies C owns B? That would be novel doctrine. I wonder, does Apple have app renaming support? When the user updates, does it pull the newly named app or does the app just die and the user have to find the new one? If the app updates, the name changes a little and the icon stays the same then it isn't too bad. If the app goes away that is devastating.
- gjm11 17y ago
  > strawmen Speaking of strawmen: I don't see anyone claiming that "ContactPad" is a generic word. What I see is the claim that it's a non-generic name made from generic elements none of which is owned by Apple, containing no bits that are owned by Apple. (That doesn't mean Apple aren't in the right here. I don't know whether they are. You can certainly infringe on a trademark without using the exact mark, and if someone brought out a tablet computer called the EyePad then the absence of the "i" would be no defence. But "ContactPad"? "JournalPad"? Not being a lawyer, I have no more than a guess. But my guess is that Apple's trademark on "iPad" is not in fact enough to make it illegal for someone else to sell a program that runs on an iPad and has "pad" in its name.) > tell me the developer shouldn't have seen this coming a mile away. Now, that I can certainly agree with. (And, also, of course it doesn't matter whether Apple have any sort of credible trademark claim; they can control what gets sold on the App Store without one.) > a particular kind of quark The quarks are: up, down, top, bottom, charmed, strange. (For a while T,B were called truth and beauty). Those are all common English words. Why would the fact that they're also names of quarks stop your lawyers worrying about them? -- Or do you mean that your product was called something like BottomQuark? You do realise that there's a really quite big software company whose name is Quark, right? Or were you talking about soft cheese?
  - jws 17y ago
    My physics eluded me. It was actually a pair of quarks.
- brg 17y ago
  Could the basic Windows utility "Notepad" be ported to the "IPad" due to naming conventions?

markkoberlein 17y ago

"In the end, it really doesn't matter, because in Apple's little App Store world, they don't even need to pretend they have a trademark. They've given themselves every legal right to pull an app for no reason at all." Crazy yes, shocking no. They did the same with the "Pod" in iPod. If you develop for Apple's devices you play by their rules. I wish Apple would embrace developers and their apps because they are the reason why people have stayed with the iPhone.

tuxychandru 17y ago
What makes this worse is the fact that "pad" is a very commonly used word both within and outside technology circles. Notepad, Launchpad, Scratchpad, etc. This makes me wonder how they can even claim rights on a term so widely used already in the same domain. As the article notes they don't list "pad" as a trademark in their own web page!
- markkoberlein 17y ago
  I agree, I don't think that Apple will go after products that have nothing to do with the iPad. Unless you make an accessory or app for the iPad I think your safe. However, it would be fun to watch Apple go after Notepad and ask Microsoft to change the name because they now own "Pad".
  - tuxychandru 17y ago
    That would be funny and indeed is of very low probability. But my point was how can a company claim rights on a term already in wide use within the same domain/industry. Trademarks and patents are getting weirder everyday.
    - Vivtek 17y ago
      They don't have a trademark on the word "pad". What they have is the ability to deny people access to the only market available for the iPhone. The language they use is slanted towards making that seem legitimate, but in the end, this is not a "trademark" issue in the legal sense, it's Apple owning the company store.

confuzatron 17y ago

Steve's not talking about a US trademark. Trademark law is different in the Democratic People's Republic of AppStoria. I'm picturing a 'Being John Malkovich'-esque court scene, where everyone except the plaintiff is Steve Jobs. "Case Closed!"

Tichy 17y ago

What the frak? I guess over time we'll just have to invent new words for everything, because so many words are forbidden.

jws 17y ago
Did you think Solutia and Cingular were first choices?

elblanco 17y ago

"Says Jobs, on his personal heliPAD that floats on a private lake like a lilly PAD, while eating an APPLE he's slicing on top of a PAD of paper, standing on PADded shoes, while his dog limps on an infected PAD nearby, while listening to 80's synth -pop music using string PADs, while PADding his bank account with iPad revenue."

crad 17y ago

What's interesting, unless I'm missing something, Siemens owns the trademark on iPad: Word Mark IPAD Goods and Services IC 007. US 013 019 021 023 031 034 035. G & S: ENGINES, NOT FOR LAND VEHICLES; ELECTRIC MOTORS FOR MACHINES AND ELECTRIC STARTER MOTORS, NAMELY, DRIVING GEARS IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: PROGRAMMABLE ELECTRICAL DRIVES FOR CONTROLLING MACHINES USED IN THE FIELD OF MEDICAL, AUTOMOTIVE AND AEROSPACE TECHNOLOGY, BUILDING SERVICES, ENGINEERING AND INDUSTRIAL AUTOMATION; LOW VOLTAGE AND MEDIUM VOLTAGE VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVES FOR CONTROL OF MOTORS Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Trademark Search Facility Classification Code LETTER-3-OR-MORE iPAD Combination of three or more letters as part of the mark SHAPES-MISC Miscellaneous shaped designs Serial Number 79023888 Filing Date March 20, 2006 Current Filing Basis 66A Original Filing Basis 66A Published for Opposition December 11, 2007 Registration Number 3389082 International Registration Number 0885058 Registration Date February 26, 2008 Owner (REGISTRANT) Siemens Aktiengesellschaft Aktiengesellschaft FED REP GERMANY Wittelsbacherplatz 2 80333 München FED REP GERMANY Attorney of Record LAWRENCE E ABELMAN Priority Date February 28, 2006 Description of Mark Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE and Pad: Word Mark PAD Goods and Services IC 007. US 013 019 021 023 031 034 035. G & S: ENGINES, NOT FOR LAND VEHICLES; ELECTRIC MOTORS FOR MACHINES AND ELECTRIC STARTER MOTORS, NAMELY, DRIVING GEARS IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: PROGRAMMABLE ELECTRICAL DRIVES FOR CONTROLLING MACHINES USED IN THE FIELD OF MEDICAL, AUTOMOTIVE AND AEROSPACE TECHNOLOGY, BUILDING SERVICES, ENGINEERING AND INDUSTRIAL AUTOMATION; LOW VOLTAGE AND MEDIUM VOLTAGE VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVES FOR CONTROL OF MOTORS Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Trademark Search Facility Classification Code LETTER-3-OR-MORE PAD Combination of three or more letters as part of the mark Serial Number 79023831 Filing Date March 20, 2006 Current Filing Basis 66A Original Filing Basis 66A Published for Opposition December 11, 2007 Registration Number 3389081 International Registration Number 0884875 Registration Date February 26, 2008 Owner (REGISTRANT) Siemens Aktiengesellschaft Aktiengesellschaft FED REP GERMANY Wittelsbacherplatz 2 80333 München FED REP GERMANY Attorney of Record LAWRENCE E ABELMAN Priority Date February 28, 2006 Description of Mark Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE [Edit: Didn't realize uspto links timeout]

hussong 17y ago

jrockway 17y ago

jrockway: jrockway owns the trademark on "Fuck Apple".

mdg 17y ago
You are lame

AndrewDucker 17y ago

Well, according to a whole bunch of comments recently, this is fine. Steve owns the App Store, he sets the rules. If you want to be allowed in then you have to follow the rules. And keep up to date with them when they change. And be happy to change your apps name, language and design if Steve doesn't like them. That's just the price you pay for being permitted to write Apps for Steve.

maxklein 17y ago

We had the same problem. Launched initial app with pad in the name, it was approved without any problems, but the update was not approved because of the 'Pad' name. But to me it's not a big deal, I just changed it and reuploaded, I doubt having 'pad' in the name caused a big difference in sales. The existing *Pad apps are still in the store.

jcromartie 17y ago

Could someone claim a trademark on "Phone" too? This is ridiculous. I had various app ideas for which a "Pad" suffix would be very appropriate. The form of the device just lends itself to apps that act like a pad of paper.

Vivtek 17y ago
Anybody can claim anything they want. In reality, should something go to court, it would quickly be revealed that Apple does not and cannot have a trademark on a word as generic as "pad". But what would you have for it? The court is probably not going to force Apple to put your app in their store. An antitrust class action might be plausible, but that's not what we're talking about when we talk about trademarks. It's misleading on Apple's part to call this a trademark issue.