5 ms·

>none of them become the target of organized harassment campaigns. That's quite dismissive of men who have become the target of harassment campaigns. >The not

>none of them become the target of organized harassment campaigns. That's quite dismissive of men who have become the target of harassment campaigns. >The notion that women should write under pen names while men freely and safely claim credit for any random achievement is a perfect example of how this industry allows itself to be rigged against women. Women aren't even supposed to identify themselves --- when they do, they're just allowing themselves to be victimized by the forces of nature, which apparently include mobs of misogynist trolls. There are plenty of men who cannot safely claim credit for their writings, though the reason is usually ideological rather than rooted in their identity. If you, as a man or a woman, post something which is found disagreeable by a large majority of your peers in 2016, someone will come after your job. Someone will try to find out where you live. To ignore this problem and solely focus on the fact that women receive snide, misogynist comments sometimes when they write innocuous articles seems intellectually dishonest.

tptacek 10y ago
I am dismissive of the idea that men become the targets of similar harassment campaigns, yes. If there is a way for me to articulate more dismissiveness, let me know, I'll do that too.
- mordant 10y ago
  I guess you've never heard of Brendan Eich.
  - tedunangst 10y ago
    Was Eich harassed because he was a man?
    - tptacek 10y ago
      No, and while I agree with neither Eich's politics nor what happened to him, I somehow find myself having no trouble holding those beliefs in my head at the same time as I do the ones I've expressed on this thread.
    - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
      That isn't the case being made: "men become targets of similar harassment campaigns" was the case. Not "men become targets of similar harassment campaigns because of their gender" If you want to qualify away from beliefs towards physical properties then fine. Lets turn around and look at those harassed for their hair colour. How about skin colour? Origin? Things other members of their family have done?
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - tedunangst 10y ago
        If one person is targeted because of their gender and one person is targeted because of their beliefs, I would qualify those situations as dissimilar.
        Normal_gaussian 10y ago
        I said: > If you want to qualify away from beliefs towards physical properties then fine. Lets turn around and look at those harassed for their hair colour. How about skin colour? Origin? Things other members of their family have done? I do not understand why this is not sufficient to preempt your comment. In case it is not here are some example I have found alongside their google search terms: * "Ginger driven to suicide" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2507153/Bullied-ginger-Wolverhampton-schoolboy-Simon-Walters-14-hanged.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2507153/Bullied-ging... * "footballer harassed racial" https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/13/racism-mario-balotelli-kevin-prince-boateng-italy https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/13/racism... * "father harassed by" http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-28/sandy-hook-massacre-victims-parents-harassed-by-truthers/7546536 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-28/sandy-hook-massacre-vi...
- roughly27 10y ago
  Not really sure how to respond to this other than to say that I find this viewpoint unconscionable and incompatible with the goal of gender equality
  - tptacek 10y ago
    I don't care.
- DanBC 10y ago
  You're clearly wrong here. Men do become the targets of massive campaigns of hate. Not as often as women, but that wasn't the claim being made.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - tedunangst 10y ago
    The claim being made is that men are not targets of SIMILAR campaigns, as in selected for the sin of being a man.
    - Nadya 10y ago
      Which is also complete bullshit - they are and by certain and predictable demographics. There's even a new term thrown at them: mansplaining. And yes, some authors have been "selected for the sin of being a man".
      - tptacek 10y ago
        The idea that men being accused of "mansplaining"† is meant to equate to organized harassment campaigns against women pretty much sums this whole issue up. Thank you. If I had myself suggested people believed that, I'd be accused of caricaturing. But we'd both know: I wouldn't have been. † (or "patronizing", a word that means literally the exact same thing and has somehow been used for centuries without mortally injuring our manly feels)
        Nadya 10y ago
        >The idea that men being accused of "mansplaining"† is meant to equate to organized harassment campaigns against women pretty much sums this whole issue up. No and that isn't what I said. That was in reference to a certain demographic of people that do target men specifically because they are men and men are equivalent to being the devil, since their beliefs are borderline a religion to begin with I feel fine in making that equivalence.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >I am dismissive of the idea that men become the targets of similar harassment campaigns, yes. Similar here is what is often called a "weasel word" -- to make the whole thing subjective and impossible to disprove (since nobody knows what would be "similar" enough to satisfy the un-disclosed similarity criteria -- in other words, sort like the "no true scotsman" fallacy). If we omit that word, the truth is simply this: men who write or men who post online in general also can and often do become targets of harassment campaigns. Especially on the internet, where harassment comes as easy as writing a swearing/threatening/derogatory comment and mobs are quick to jump on mass attacks. Their attackers may not call them "bitches" and "sluts" (so in that sense it's not "similar") but they do call them tons of other things, including things that they don't call women (e.g. "faggot"). Here are some examples grabbed from literally the first page of Google search: Overall, men are somewhat more likely than women to experience at least one of the elements of online harassment, 44% vs. 37%. In terms of specific experiences, men are more likely than women to encounter name-calling, embarrassment, and physical threats. http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/ One blogpost (civilly) critical of Sarkeesian and her supporters offers a fully sourced compilation of online comments wishing death, rape, mutilation and deadly diseases upon Jack Thompson, an activist critical of violent and sexual content in videogames—as well as death threats directed at male videogame developers who ran afoul of their fans. Meanwhile, role-playing game designer James Desborough claims to have been viciously threatened for defending the use of sexual violence as a plot element in games. And film blogger Alex Sandell (Juicy Cerebellum) has described receiving not only a deluge of hate mail but threatening phone calls—sometimes in the middle of the night, and sometimes made to his relatives—after writing negative reviews of the first two Lord of the Rings movies. In the political sphere, several conservative male writers and activists have been targeted for rape and death threats, with their phone numbers publicly posted, after producing a documentary critical of the Occupy movement. Right-wing bloggers involved in the bizarre war with leftist activist Brett Kimberlin that David Weigel recently chronicled in The Daily Beast have faced scary cyber-harassment from some of Kimberlin’s supporters, including graphic fantasies of violent revenge, lurid sexual slurs, and accusations of child pornography. (Particularly disturbing examples are documented in a blogpost by First Amendment advocate Ken White.) On the other side, Charles Johnson, who runs the blog Little Green Footballs, relocated to a gated community because of threats he received after breaking with the right and embracing more liberal politics. One male victim of cyberstalking, British expatriate novelist James Lasdun, told his story in the 2013 memoir, Give Me Everything You Have: On Being Stalked. Lasdun’s stalker, a former creative-writing student whose romantic overtures he had rejected, not only barraged him with abusive messages but emailed his colleagues accusing him of stealing her work, preying on female students, and even setting her up to be raped; she posted similar slanders on websites including Amazon.com and Wikipedia. But an experience like Lasdun’s gets no political sympathy; indeed, the review in The New Yorker chided him for failing to admit his “crush” on the woman and his role in leading her on. [a] study, conducted by the British think tank Demos, was limited to a fairly small sample of British celebrities, journalists and politicians whose Twitter timelines were tracked over a two-week period, its findings are nonetheless interesting. On the whole, 2.5 percent of the tweets sent to the men but fewer than 1 percent of those sent to women were classified as abusive. Male politicians fared especially badly, receiving more than six times as much abuse as female politicians. The only category in which women got more Twitter abuse than men was journalism: abusive messages accounted for more than 5 percent of the tweets sent to the female journalists and TV presenters in the study and fewer than 2 percent of the ones sent to the male journalists. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/04/men-are-harassed-more-than-women-online.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/04/men-are-har...

tptacek 10y ago

I am dismissive of the idea that men become the targets of similar harassment campaigns, yes. If there is a way for me to articulate more dismissiveness, let me know, I'll do that too.

mordant 10y ago
I guess you've never heard of Brendan Eich.
- tedunangst 10y ago
  Was Eich harassed because he was a man?
  - tptacek 10y ago
    No, and while I agree with neither Eich's politics nor what happened to him, I somehow find myself having no trouble holding those beliefs in my head at the same time as I do the ones I've expressed on this thread.
  - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
    That isn't the case being made: "men become targets of similar harassment campaigns" was the case. Not "men become targets of similar harassment campaigns because of their gender" If you want to qualify away from beliefs towards physical properties then fine. Lets turn around and look at those harassed for their hair colour. How about skin colour? Origin? Things other members of their family have done?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - tedunangst 10y ago
      If one person is targeted because of their gender and one person is targeted because of their beliefs, I would qualify those situations as dissimilar.
      - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
        I said: > If you want to qualify away from beliefs towards physical properties then fine. Lets turn around and look at those harassed for their hair colour. How about skin colour? Origin? Things other members of their family have done? I do not understand why this is not sufficient to preempt your comment. In case it is not here are some example I have found alongside their google search terms: * "Ginger driven to suicide" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2507153/Bullied-ginger-Wolverhampton-schoolboy-Simon-Walters-14-hanged.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2507153/Bullied-ging... * "footballer harassed racial" https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/13/racism-mario-balotelli-kevin-prince-boateng-italy https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/13/racism... * "father harassed by" http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-28/sandy-hook-massacre-victims-parents-harassed-by-truthers/7546536 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-28/sandy-hook-massacre-vi...
roughly27 10y ago
Not really sure how to respond to this other than to say that I find this viewpoint unconscionable and incompatible with the goal of gender equality
- tptacek 10y ago
  I don't care.
DanBC 10y ago
You're clearly wrong here. Men do become the targets of massive campaigns of hate. Not as often as women, but that wasn't the claim being made.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- tedunangst 10y ago
  The claim being made is that men are not targets of SIMILAR campaigns, as in selected for the sin of being a man.
  - Nadya 10y ago
    Which is also complete bullshit - they are and by certain and predictable demographics. There's even a new term thrown at them: mansplaining. And yes, some authors have been "selected for the sin of being a man".
    - tptacek 10y ago
      The idea that men being accused of "mansplaining"† is meant to equate to organized harassment campaigns against women pretty much sums this whole issue up. Thank you. If I had myself suggested people believed that, I'd be accused of caricaturing. But we'd both know: I wouldn't have been. † (or "patronizing", a word that means literally the exact same thing and has somehow been used for centuries without mortally injuring our manly feels)
      - Nadya 10y ago
        >The idea that men being accused of "mansplaining"† is meant to equate to organized harassment campaigns against women pretty much sums this whole issue up. No and that isn't what I said. That was in reference to a certain demographic of people that do target men specifically because they are men and men are equivalent to being the devil, since their beliefs are borderline a religion to begin with I feel fine in making that equivalence.
coldtea 10y ago
>I am dismissive of the idea that men become the targets of similar harassment campaigns, yes. Similar here is what is often called a "weasel word" -- to make the whole thing subjective and impossible to disprove (since nobody knows what would be "similar" enough to satisfy the un-disclosed similarity criteria -- in other words, sort like the "no true scotsman" fallacy). If we omit that word, the truth is simply this: men who write or men who post online in general also can and often do become targets of harassment campaigns. Especially on the internet, where harassment comes as easy as writing a swearing/threatening/derogatory comment and mobs are quick to jump on mass attacks. Their attackers may not call them "bitches" and "sluts" (so in that sense it's not "similar") but they do call them tons of other things, including things that they don't call women (e.g. "faggot"). Here are some examples grabbed from literally the first page of Google search: Overall, men are somewhat more likely than women to experience at least one of the elements of online harassment, 44% vs. 37%. In terms of specific experiences, men are more likely than women to encounter name-calling, embarrassment, and physical threats. http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/ One blogpost (civilly) critical of Sarkeesian and her supporters offers a fully sourced compilation of online comments wishing death, rape, mutilation and deadly diseases upon Jack Thompson, an activist critical of violent and sexual content in videogames—as well as death threats directed at male videogame developers who ran afoul of their fans. Meanwhile, role-playing game designer James Desborough claims to have been viciously threatened for defending the use of sexual violence as a plot element in games. And film blogger Alex Sandell (Juicy Cerebellum) has described receiving not only a deluge of hate mail but threatening phone calls—sometimes in the middle of the night, and sometimes made to his relatives—after writing negative reviews of the first two Lord of the Rings movies. In the political sphere, several conservative male writers and activists have been targeted for rape and death threats, with their phone numbers publicly posted, after producing a documentary critical of the Occupy movement. Right-wing bloggers involved in the bizarre war with leftist activist Brett Kimberlin that David Weigel recently chronicled in The Daily Beast have faced scary cyber-harassment from some of Kimberlin’s supporters, including graphic fantasies of violent revenge, lurid sexual slurs, and accusations of child pornography. (Particularly disturbing examples are documented in a blogpost by First Amendment advocate Ken White.) On the other side, Charles Johnson, who runs the blog Little Green Footballs, relocated to a gated community because of threats he received after breaking with the right and embracing more liberal politics. One male victim of cyberstalking, British expatriate novelist James Lasdun, told his story in the 2013 memoir, Give Me Everything You Have: On Being Stalked. Lasdun’s stalker, a former creative-writing student whose romantic overtures he had rejected, not only barraged him with abusive messages but emailed his colleagues accusing him of stealing her work, preying on female students, and even setting her up to be raped; she posted similar slanders on websites including Amazon.com and Wikipedia. But an experience like Lasdun’s gets no political sympathy; indeed, the review in The New Yorker chided him for failing to admit his “crush” on the woman and his role in leading her on. [a] study, conducted by the British think tank Demos, was limited to a fairly small sample of British celebrities, journalists and politicians whose Twitter timelines were tracked over a two-week period, its findings are nonetheless interesting. On the whole, 2.5 percent of the tweets sent to the men but fewer than 1 percent of those sent to women were classified as abusive. Male politicians fared especially badly, receiving more than six times as much abuse as female politicians. The only category in which women got more Twitter abuse than men was journalism: abusive messages accounted for more than 5 percent of the tweets sent to the female journalists and TV presenters in the study and fewer than 2 percent of the ones sent to the male journalists. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/04/men-are-harassed-more-than-women-online.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/04/men-are-har...