8 ms·

> which apparently include mobs of misogynist trolls What's the evidence of this? If these trolls aren't using real identities I'd be skeptical if it were more

by smokeyj 10y ago

> which apparently include mobs of misogynist trolls What's the evidence of this? If these trolls aren't using real identities I'd be skeptical if it were more than one person. Maybe even someone who knows her personally if they're dedicated this much energy.

tptacek 10y ago
It doesn't matter. The suggestions are repeated and clear: a woman putting herself out in public talking about her work is begging for harassment. Women should write under pen names, so we can learn from their work and they can trade any credit or career improvement for "not dealing with harassment". That is not a deal men are required to make. I'm not OK with this. Nobody should be OK with this.
- smokeyj 10y ago
  It does matter. Are we going to let one basement dwelling loser ruin the internet as a whole for everyone? Are we going to empower anonymous commenters to pit people against each other? It may be ignorant of me to suggest blowing these trolls off and not paying them attention - but it isn't insincere or sexist. I'd like to hear your solution.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Apparently: yes. That's what we're saying when we say that a solution to this problem is that women should stop taking credit for their work, their writing, and their opinions.
    - smokeyj 10y ago
      That's not what I'm saying at all. More like, ignore the trolls and keep doing your thing. I know "growing thicker skin" is not the ideal solution - but what else is there?
      - tptacek 10y ago
        Not pretending that pen names are a valid solution would be a really great start. See: comment rooting this thread.
        khedoros1 10y ago
        It's not a valid solution. Is it an improvement to the current situation, or a step on the path to finding a solution? If not, what are you suggesting as the next step to make things better? Because I don't feel like I know enough about the nature and motivation of the harassment to make a useful suggestion.
      - Mz 10y ago
        http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-gender-parity-online.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-ge...
      - mindslight 10y ago
        "The discussion" really needs details on any concrete proposals for combating this problem. This is not a social problem - harassers are a tiny minority. The fundamental problem is managing fan-in. Since we've all become micro-celebrities, we've all got miniature versions of the problems famous people have always had but without the resources to protect ourselves (PR agents, bodyguards, etc). It behooves the people proclaiming "something must be done" to detail what exactly they'd like to see happen. Otherwise we just have an emotional mob seeking any convenient scapegoat. Specific constructive ideas appear to be lacking, and in their place vague allusions and shouting down of people who do concretely point out how individuals can try to protect themselves. I think what most "detractors" are worried about is an alignment with the government desire to remove anonymity from the Internet, which seems to be implied as some kind of solution even though it should be a complete non-starter.
        Mz 10y ago
        And when someone does talk -- routinely -- about constructive action that can be taken in the here and now, it is largely ignored. You can start here for some of what I have to say on the topic of how to promote gender parity online: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-gender-parity-online.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-ge... Yes, that same link is posted elsewhere in this discussion. So far, it has gotten zero upvotes (or downvotes) or replies. Because, as usual, it is getting mostly ignored. People making the kinds of comment you have just made seem to not actually want solutions. They seem to want a convenient excuse for dismissing the criticism entirely. I have been working hard to bring solutions, not complaints, for quite a few years. It is mostly ignored. If you actually want real change, you could start by paying more attention to the things I suggest, acting on them and promoting my writing. But I imagine that won't happen at all.
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  > The suggestions are repeated and clear: a woman putting herself out in public talking about her work is begging for harassment. This is not what is being said. I think you have found a very small number of comments and extrapolated them to take a side on the argument you want to have. And I think in doing so you are confusing the issue and hope of progression. Firstly, what I am seeing said in these comments and in other articles and circles is that harassment is something that happens, something that is worse if you are seen as vulnerable, and many suggesting that more women are seen as more vulnerable than men. As a response to that a lot of people are suggesting that perhaps vulnerable people should use pen names. The response to this is that pen names hamper the point of writing. Nowhere have I seen serious claims that they were "begging for harassment". What I have seen are people who receive hate simply for 'being ginger' in photo's on Reddit. People who are harassed and followed in the street for being obese or mentally ill. People who are teased and chased or excluded for being weaker or slower. People who receive hate for making political comments on Facebook or twitter. I have seen these people have real problems with those that harass them following and abusing them from site to site, stripping them of their self-worth. These are the things I am not OK with. I am also not OK with you marginalising the problems of others (which in this case appears to be any vulnerable person sporting a penis).

by smokeyj 10y ago

tptacek 10y ago

It doesn't matter. The suggestions are repeated and clear: a woman putting herself out in public talking about her work is begging for harassment. Women should write under pen names, so we can learn from their work and they can trade any credit or career improvement for "not dealing with harassment". That is not a deal men are required to make. I'm not OK with this. Nobody should be OK with this.

smokeyj 10y ago
It does matter. Are we going to let one basement dwelling loser ruin the internet as a whole for everyone? Are we going to empower anonymous commenters to pit people against each other? It may be ignorant of me to suggest blowing these trolls off and not paying them attention - but it isn't insincere or sexist. I'd like to hear your solution.
- tptacek 10y ago
  Apparently: yes. That's what we're saying when we say that a solution to this problem is that women should stop taking credit for their work, their writing, and their opinions.
  - smokeyj 10y ago
    That's not what I'm saying at all. More like, ignore the trolls and keep doing your thing. I know "growing thicker skin" is not the ideal solution - but what else is there?
    - tptacek 10y ago
      Not pretending that pen names are a valid solution would be a really great start. See: comment rooting this thread.
      - khedoros1 10y ago
        It's not a valid solution. Is it an improvement to the current situation, or a step on the path to finding a solution? If not, what are you suggesting as the next step to make things better? Because I don't feel like I know enough about the nature and motivation of the harassment to make a useful suggestion.
    - Mz 10y ago
      http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-gender-parity-online.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-ge...
    - mindslight 10y ago
      "The discussion" really needs details on any concrete proposals for combating this problem. This is not a social problem - harassers are a tiny minority. The fundamental problem is managing fan-in. Since we've all become micro-celebrities, we've all got miniature versions of the problems famous people have always had but without the resources to protect ourselves (PR agents, bodyguards, etc). It behooves the people proclaiming "something must be done" to detail what exactly they'd like to see happen. Otherwise we just have an emotional mob seeking any convenient scapegoat. Specific constructive ideas appear to be lacking, and in their place vague allusions and shouting down of people who do concretely point out how individuals can try to protect themselves. I think what most "detractors" are worried about is an alignment with the government desire to remove anonymity from the Internet, which seems to be implied as some kind of solution even though it should be a complete non-starter.
      - Mz 10y ago
        And when someone does talk -- routinely -- about constructive action that can be taken in the here and now, it is largely ignored. You can start here for some of what I have to say on the topic of how to promote gender parity online: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-gender-parity-online.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2016/06/promoting-ge... Yes, that same link is posted elsewhere in this discussion. So far, it has gotten zero upvotes (or downvotes) or replies. Because, as usual, it is getting mostly ignored. People making the kinds of comment you have just made seem to not actually want solutions. They seem to want a convenient excuse for dismissing the criticism entirely. I have been working hard to bring solutions, not complaints, for quite a few years. It is mostly ignored. If you actually want real change, you could start by paying more attention to the things I suggest, acting on them and promoting my writing. But I imagine that won't happen at all.
Normal_gaussian 10y ago
> The suggestions are repeated and clear: a woman putting herself out in public talking about her work is begging for harassment. This is not what is being said. I think you have found a very small number of comments and extrapolated them to take a side on the argument you want to have. And I think in doing so you are confusing the issue and hope of progression. Firstly, what I am seeing said in these comments and in other articles and circles is that harassment is something that happens, something that is worse if you are seen as vulnerable, and many suggesting that more women are seen as more vulnerable than men. As a response to that a lot of people are suggesting that perhaps vulnerable people should use pen names. The response to this is that pen names hamper the point of writing. Nowhere have I seen serious claims that they were "begging for harassment". What I have seen are people who receive hate simply for 'being ginger' in photo's on Reddit. People who are harassed and followed in the street for being obese or mentally ill. People who are teased and chased or excluded for being weaker or slower. People who receive hate for making political comments on Facebook or twitter. I have seen these people have real problems with those that harass them following and abusing them from site to site, stripping them of their self-worth. These are the things I am not OK with. I am also not OK with you marginalising the problems of others (which in this case appears to be any vulnerable person sporting a penis).