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You could construct massive artificial satellites that have permanent human habitation if we could shield ourselves from the radiation. It's fascinating that we

You could construct massive artificial satellites that have permanent human habitation if we could shield ourselves from the radiation. It's fascinating that we could conceivably have people born, spending most of their life, and dying in a completely hostile enviornment and that it will be in space before it will be under water. I didn't watch all of Elon's presentation and I don't know if he mentioned this. However, I would think that a space elevator of some sort or a massive lunar manufacturing facility would be required to efficiently create all the components of an Interplanetary Transport System.. Upwards of 80% of the mass of going into space is just propellant to escape gravity. Even if the rockets are reusable, we won't truly be an interplanetary civilization until most of the components needed for space travel are actually manufactured in space or in extremely low gravity situations

YZF 10y ago
It's a key part of the proposal. The propellant is shuttled over to the spaceship in orbit via multiple runs of a refuelling rocket. I guess the downside of constructing or assembling anything anywhere but earth today is that it's going to be a lot more expensive and complicated. Perhaps once Mars has some critical mass the construction can shift to there as the gravity is lower. The moon is farther away than orbit and also doesn't really have a lot in the way of accessible natural resources. Elon touched briefly on the topic of a moon settlement... Despite all the talk of a space elevator I think it's still science fiction. Elon's plan is all based on existing technology...
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
  I guess I was imagining more of an Interplanetary Transport System that was at least self-sustaining if not profitable. The lack of resources on the Moon could be solved by finding an appropriate near-earth asteroid to mine. The ideal 1st candidate based on potential mineral wealth ($87 billion, but I don't believe those numbers are very accurate) and proximity to earth (a measly .1au, or 9 million miles during its solar periohelion :) is Anteru I believe. Here we are, on the precipice of colonizing Mars in possibly my 80 yr old father's lifetime, witnessing perhaps mankind's greatest and boldest feat yet and I'm getting greedy and thinking "Yawn, who cares. Let me know when the Interplanetary TRADE System is profitable and indefinitely self-sustaining." I'd try to visit Mars at least once . When it reaches a level of infrastructure and economic development of early 18th century British or other Euro colonies is when it's looking likely I would consider making a one way trip there.
neaden 10y ago
What's the appeal of people living in orbit though? By that I don't mean industries that could happen there, but people actually having kids, growing up, and dying. I don't see the rationale for a permanent population in orbit anymore then we have one in Antarctica or a deep sea oil platform.
- zardo 10y ago
  Once the cost is low enough, the rationale is its cheaper to make new land than to buy land on a crowded planet. If we hit that point, you would expect massive space colonization.
  - zbyte64 10y ago
    Wouldn't it be easier to place the living module on an inhospitable part of the planet then launching it into orbit? There are lots of deserts and tundras available.
    - zardo 10y ago
      That is the case now, and it's likely to be the case for a long time to come.
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
  You more or less answered your own question. For example, let's say that Enceladus or Europa does actually indeed possess a subsurface liquid water ocean and becomes a colony. Further, let's also assume that a lot of the raw materials needed for colonization for both Mars and the moon come from mining the asteroid belt. Thirdly, let's assume that there is a decent amount of trade between Earth, Mars, and one of these moons. When you're working on one of these stations, you're not a seasonal worker like an offshore oil driller. It takes ~5 years to travel to Jupiter, so travelling there is most likely a very long term work commitment. At that point, it makes a lot of sense to have some sort of permanent port instead of a work camp between Mars and Jupiter to stretch your space legs,, rest, refuel, resupply, seek entertainment and the company of others, buy whatever black market items are banned on Earth or other colonies, etc. Prostitution would likely make its way there to as it does with mining towns here on earth. These circumstances would be a very attractive economic incentive for some enterprising folks. In fact, if we ever settle anywhere beyond the asteroid belt, this would become inevitable. People with unbearable and untreatable joint pain may find zero gravity to be a panacea for other reasons why someone might opt for this.I'm just spitballing though and came up with this scenario in 5 minutes, so take what I say with a grain of salt :) I just think that if we become truly a spacefaring civilization, permanent habitation in space becomes inevitable for a litany of reasons. Space travel is going to be possibly the most disruptive development in human history. I'm going out on a llimb here, but I think that new religions will spring up and instead of a pilgrimmage to Mecca, the destination may be to observe the rings of Saturn. Or some people may just fall in love with the calming white noise of a warp drive generator. A 5 hr loop of Star Trek's engine noise is my go-to deep work soundtrack :) A lot of towns in the United States and globally started out as rest and refueling stops between major centers of trade. Why would this be any different? I think there are enough people here on Earth out of a population of billions who might actually prefer to live in that environment or just don't mind it in the face of striking it rich.

YZF 10y ago

It's a key part of the proposal. The propellant is shuttled over to the spaceship in orbit via multiple runs of a refuelling rocket. I guess the downside of constructing or assembling anything anywhere but earth today is that it's going to be a lot more expensive and complicated. Perhaps once Mars has some critical mass the construction can shift to there as the gravity is lower. The moon is farther away than orbit and also doesn't really have a lot in the way of accessible natural resources. Elon touched briefly on the topic of a moon settlement... Despite all the talk of a space elevator I think it's still science fiction. Elon's plan is all based on existing technology...

FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
I guess I was imagining more of an Interplanetary Transport System that was at least self-sustaining if not profitable. The lack of resources on the Moon could be solved by finding an appropriate near-earth asteroid to mine. The ideal 1st candidate based on potential mineral wealth ($87 billion, but I don't believe those numbers are very accurate) and proximity to earth (a measly .1au, or 9 million miles during its solar periohelion :) is Anteru I believe. Here we are, on the precipice of colonizing Mars in possibly my 80 yr old father's lifetime, witnessing perhaps mankind's greatest and boldest feat yet and I'm getting greedy and thinking "Yawn, who cares. Let me know when the Interplanetary TRADE System is profitable and indefinitely self-sustaining." I'd try to visit Mars at least once . When it reaches a level of infrastructure and economic development of early 18th century British or other Euro colonies is when it's looking likely I would consider making a one way trip there.

neaden 10y ago

What's the appeal of people living in orbit though? By that I don't mean industries that could happen there, but people actually having kids, growing up, and dying. I don't see the rationale for a permanent population in orbit anymore then we have one in Antarctica or a deep sea oil platform.

zardo 10y ago
Once the cost is low enough, the rationale is its cheaper to make new land than to buy land on a crowded planet. If we hit that point, you would expect massive space colonization.
- zbyte64 10y ago
  Wouldn't it be easier to place the living module on an inhospitable part of the planet then launching it into orbit? There are lots of deserts and tundras available.
  - zardo 10y ago
    That is the case now, and it's likely to be the case for a long time to come.
FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
You more or less answered your own question. For example, let's say that Enceladus or Europa does actually indeed possess a subsurface liquid water ocean and becomes a colony. Further, let's also assume that a lot of the raw materials needed for colonization for both Mars and the moon come from mining the asteroid belt. Thirdly, let's assume that there is a decent amount of trade between Earth, Mars, and one of these moons. When you're working on one of these stations, you're not a seasonal worker like an offshore oil driller. It takes ~5 years to travel to Jupiter, so travelling there is most likely a very long term work commitment. At that point, it makes a lot of sense to have some sort of permanent port instead of a work camp between Mars and Jupiter to stretch your space legs,, rest, refuel, resupply, seek entertainment and the company of others, buy whatever black market items are banned on Earth or other colonies, etc. Prostitution would likely make its way there to as it does with mining towns here on earth. These circumstances would be a very attractive economic incentive for some enterprising folks. In fact, if we ever settle anywhere beyond the asteroid belt, this would become inevitable. People with unbearable and untreatable joint pain may find zero gravity to be a panacea for other reasons why someone might opt for this.I'm just spitballing though and came up with this scenario in 5 minutes, so take what I say with a grain of salt :) I just think that if we become truly a spacefaring civilization, permanent habitation in space becomes inevitable for a litany of reasons. Space travel is going to be possibly the most disruptive development in human history. I'm going out on a llimb here, but I think that new religions will spring up and instead of a pilgrimmage to Mecca, the destination may be to observe the rings of Saturn. Or some people may just fall in love with the calming white noise of a warp drive generator. A 5 hr loop of Star Trek's engine noise is my go-to deep work soundtrack :) A lot of towns in the United States and globally started out as rest and refueling stops between major centers of trade. Why would this be any different? I think there are enough people here on Earth out of a population of billions who might actually prefer to live in that environment or just don't mind it in the face of striking it rich.