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"A lot of the comments were about the post’s grammar and structure; far fewer were about the actual content." Of course they were. There is a despicable passiv

"A lot of the comments were about the post’s grammar and structure; far fewer were about the actual content." Of course they were. There is a despicable passive-aggressive smugness that is far too common, involving demonstrating one's superiority by sniping at the medium (no pun intended) instead of addressing the message; it allows one to show off without having to take any risks. I've found it very common in circles in which many participants spent their formative years being clever and being told how clever they are.

xemdetia 10y ago
Aside from the other bits mentioned in the article isn't 'comments about the post's grammar and structure' one of the most valuable pieces of feedback? I am not sure why they would call it out as a bad thing. If you are trying to send ideas and the person trying to receive the ideas is having more trouble trying to decode how you sent it rather than work with the idea being sent you have a problem. When you get earnest critical critique that is more rewarding any day than a +1 or like on facebook, since you know exactly what needs to be done for next time.
- KendraRoss 10y ago
  As a writer, I completely agree with you. Solid feedback about grammar, sentence structure, and even tone of voice would have been super helpful. That said, not all feedback is meant to be constructive - that can come across clearly, even on the internet. It's unfortunate that a young woman, clearly still in high school, felt torn down instead of built up. The most important feedback I'd like to send to the young women who publish with us is that there's room for your voice and your opinion, and you'll be treated with respect.
- seanyo 10y ago
  Co-Editor of the Medium publication here. You're definitely right that we can't share our ideas if we don't effectively communicate them. I know I deeply appreciate when people take the time to respond with comments to help make what I've shared better. +1 are always great, but comments are better :) For me, how we write is as important as what we right - both need to be good enough to successfully communicate our ideas. I also want to share that I often encounter copy-editing responses that I see as cover for bias. Not all copy-editing feedback is a cover for bias, but much of what I see is - I think this happens because it is easier and less risky to comment, critique or outright attack the form of a position rather than engaging with the with substance of the position. The kind of bias I'm referring to, and the sort of responses it can lead to is described in this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fact-checking-is-largely-irrelevant-because-deceit_us_57ea8cd3e4b07f20daa0fbd2?ncid=engmodushpmg00000003 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fact-checking-is-largely... Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this. I really appreciate it. Sean Yo
  - EliRivers 10y ago
    For me, how we write is as important as what we right I see what you did there, and it suggests a playfulness that means a question I was crafting about the literalness of that statement can be dumped. If anything, you've demonstrated that the wrong word in the right place can carry an enormous subtext. This, though, is a layer beyond merely correct spelling.
- EliRivers 10y ago
  I am not sure why they would call it out as a bad thing. It is a bad thing when it is used as a way to belittle someone. As a way to smugly dismiss their argument without having to actually examine it. That's bad, and it's common, and it's often done with a childish, passive-aggressive meanness of spirit. There's nothing inherently wrong with helping someone communicate better; it becomes a bad thing when it's used as a way to belittle someone and dismiss their argument on grounds that have nothing to do with the actual argument. In this very thread, clifantic makes it clear that s/he will ignore what someone has to say if they are bad at expressing it. one of the most valuable pieces of feedback? Not nearly as valuable as feedback about the actual message, I would say. Even Shakespeare couldn't turn falsehood into truth by beauty of expression.
clifanatic 10y ago
I don't know what grammar points they were discussing, since the post was taken down, but usually when I see comments about grammar on the internet, they're about pretty egregious mistakes - usually the kind that very, very uneducated people make. Here's the thing that you "I'm not writing a college essay!" people seem to miss - for a lot of us, keeping track of the difference between "your" and "you're" or "their", "there" and "they're" takes literally zero concentration. I'd go so far as to say that a majority of native English speakers have never, ever (since elementary school, anyway), mixed those words up accidentally. These aren't mistakes that non-native English speakers make either. Keeping track of proper grammar is, by far, the least difficult part of expressing thoughts in written form. If you're prone to making mistakes like that... you probably aren't very smart. And what you have to say probably isn't very profound. You really shouldn't be writing, you should be reading. You shouldn't be talking, you should be listening.
- kevin42 10y ago
  > "You really shouldn't be writing, you should be reading" So basically you are the type of person that caused the problem being discussed here. There is a difference between someone making mistakes and someone feeling the need to point them out in public or private, or to judge who should be writing. Maybe they should be reading more. But who are you or any other anonymous person to comment on that. If you don't have anything nice to say...
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  > keeping track of the difference between "your" and "you're" or "their", "there" and "they're" takes literally zero concentration For you. People think differently, and something that comes natural to you does not come natural to others.
  - clifanatic 10y ago
    Sure. There are people who are actually incapable of learning how to tie their own shoelaces, too. We (rightly) pity those people, but we don't turn to them for deep intellectual insights.

xemdetia 10y ago

Aside from the other bits mentioned in the article isn't 'comments about the post's grammar and structure' one of the most valuable pieces of feedback? I am not sure why they would call it out as a bad thing. If you are trying to send ideas and the person trying to receive the ideas is having more trouble trying to decode how you sent it rather than work with the idea being sent you have a problem. When you get earnest critical critique that is more rewarding any day than a +1 or like on facebook, since you know exactly what needs to be done for next time.

KendraRoss 10y ago
As a writer, I completely agree with you. Solid feedback about grammar, sentence structure, and even tone of voice would have been super helpful. That said, not all feedback is meant to be constructive - that can come across clearly, even on the internet. It's unfortunate that a young woman, clearly still in high school, felt torn down instead of built up. The most important feedback I'd like to send to the young women who publish with us is that there's room for your voice and your opinion, and you'll be treated with respect.
seanyo 10y ago
Co-Editor of the Medium publication here. You're definitely right that we can't share our ideas if we don't effectively communicate them. I know I deeply appreciate when people take the time to respond with comments to help make what I've shared better. +1 are always great, but comments are better :) For me, how we write is as important as what we right - both need to be good enough to successfully communicate our ideas. I also want to share that I often encounter copy-editing responses that I see as cover for bias. Not all copy-editing feedback is a cover for bias, but much of what I see is - I think this happens because it is easier and less risky to comment, critique or outright attack the form of a position rather than engaging with the with substance of the position. The kind of bias I'm referring to, and the sort of responses it can lead to is described in this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fact-checking-is-largely-irrelevant-because-deceit_us_57ea8cd3e4b07f20daa0fbd2?ncid=engmodushpmg00000003 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fact-checking-is-largely... Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this. I really appreciate it. Sean Yo
- EliRivers 10y ago
  For me, how we write is as important as what we right I see what you did there, and it suggests a playfulness that means a question I was crafting about the literalness of that statement can be dumped. If anything, you've demonstrated that the wrong word in the right place can carry an enormous subtext. This, though, is a layer beyond merely correct spelling.
EliRivers 10y ago
I am not sure why they would call it out as a bad thing. It is a bad thing when it is used as a way to belittle someone. As a way to smugly dismiss their argument without having to actually examine it. That's bad, and it's common, and it's often done with a childish, passive-aggressive meanness of spirit. There's nothing inherently wrong with helping someone communicate better; it becomes a bad thing when it's used as a way to belittle someone and dismiss their argument on grounds that have nothing to do with the actual argument. In this very thread, clifantic makes it clear that s/he will ignore what someone has to say if they are bad at expressing it. one of the most valuable pieces of feedback? Not nearly as valuable as feedback about the actual message, I would say. Even Shakespeare couldn't turn falsehood into truth by beauty of expression.

clifanatic 10y ago

I don't know what grammar points they were discussing, since the post was taken down, but usually when I see comments about grammar on the internet, they're about pretty egregious mistakes - usually the kind that very, very uneducated people make. Here's the thing that you "I'm not writing a college essay!" people seem to miss - for a lot of us, keeping track of the difference between "your" and "you're" or "their", "there" and "they're" takes literally zero concentration. I'd go so far as to say that a majority of native English speakers have never, ever (since elementary school, anyway), mixed those words up accidentally. These aren't mistakes that non-native English speakers make either. Keeping track of proper grammar is, by far, the least difficult part of expressing thoughts in written form. If you're prone to making mistakes like that... you probably aren't very smart. And what you have to say probably isn't very profound. You really shouldn't be writing, you should be reading. You shouldn't be talking, you should be listening.

kevin42 10y ago
> "You really shouldn't be writing, you should be reading" So basically you are the type of person that caused the problem being discussed here. There is a difference between someone making mistakes and someone feeling the need to point them out in public or private, or to judge who should be writing. Maybe they should be reading more. But who are you or any other anonymous person to comment on that. If you don't have anything nice to say...
CaptSpify 10y ago
> keeping track of the difference between "your" and "you're" or "their", "there" and "they're" takes literally zero concentration For you. People think differently, and something that comes natural to you does not come natural to others.
- clifanatic 10y ago
  Sure. There are people who are actually incapable of learning how to tie their own shoelaces, too. We (rightly) pity those people, but we don't turn to them for deep intellectual insights.