4 ms·

Midtown West is like that. Midtown East is much less touristy and includes great restaurants, a lot of office buildings, and fairly residential parts (like Mur

by rm999 10y ago

Midtown West is like that. Midtown East is much less touristy and includes great restaurants, a lot of office buildings, and fairly residential parts (like Murray Hill). It also includes Penn Station's foil - Grand Central (Grand Central was actually saved because of the lessons learned from Penn Station).

potatolicious 10y ago
Agree, I think that discounting Midtown entirely as a concrete bore lacks enough nuance. There are certain parts of Midtown that are quite pleasant (well, assuming you're cool with lots of people). Each of the Avenues have their own character, it so happens that 7th Ave and 8th Ave tends to be seedy, under-utilized, deserted, and altogether unpleasant. Compare with, say, 5th Ave or 6th Ave, which even in its most tourist-trap-laden spots are actually reasonably pleasant places to be. Or like you said, further east. I don't really consider Murray Hill/Kips Bay part of Midtown, but even Midtown East (42nd thru 59th) is rather nice and suffers from few/none of the problems that plague 7th and 8th Ave. I think much of the problem comes down to the under-development of the Far West Side. The east side of Manhattan is extensively developed for commercial and residential use all the way to the edge of the water. The west side on the other hand continues to be a mix of light industry, auto shops, warehouses, and general usage that discourages public traffic. The development of Hudson Yards (the form of which I disagree with) will hopefully alleviate some of this problem. As it is the area around Penn serves no useful purpose for anyone besides commuters passing through. The introduction of mass residential and commercial use should hopefully fix some of this.
- ghaff 10y ago
  In addition to Hudson Yards (which I don't really have an opinion on) and the completion of the High Line's northern end, there's also been a fair bit of other building and, I guess, gentrification in Hell's Kitchen generally. New restaurants, hotels, etc. If I'm going to a show at the Javits and/or want to otherwise be in the vicinity of midtown theaters, that's where I tend to stay these days. It's convenient, has good access to reasonably priced restaurants, and is close to many of the theaters and other Midtown attractions while being outside of Times Square craziness/crush.
  - potatolicious 10y ago
    Yes, Hell's Kitchen is nowadays quite nice and it has an impact on the 7th/8th Ave corridor. The stretch of 7th/8th adjacent to Hell's Kitchen is noticeably nicer than the more southern stretches from 23rd thru 42nd. The lack of development west of those areas is definitely a major issue. My main beef with Hudson Yards is that it fails to follow the Manhattan grid, and favors massive complexes with idyllic parks and public spaces between buildings, rather than streets. This is the same fatally flawed planning that has created innumerable empty concrete plazas around the country - that whole area will be defined by the desertedness of its public spaces. Ultimately the best public space are the streets were life and commerce happens, not isolated courtyards between skyscrapers.
    - ghaff 10y ago
      >This is the same fatally flawed planning that has created innumerable empty concrete plazas around the country - that whole area will be defined by the desertedness of its public spaces. I don't disagree with your general point. Boston has one of the worst examples around City Hall (which the city is finally trying to do something about). That said, probably because of its density, much of Manhattan doesn't seem to suffer from empty pocket parks and plazas--at least in nicer weather--to the degree that other cities may. I wonder if the High Line will also help with respect to Hudson Yards specifically although I haven't really taken a close look at the plans.
- bradleyjg 10y ago
  The area right around Grand Central suffers from too few residential units in proportion to everything else and so ends up feeling a bit sterile. It certainly isn't as bad as over by Penn, but I don't think it is anyone's favorite part of town.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    And there are a lot of tall buildings which can make the area immediately uptown from Grand Central in particular feel a lot like the stereotypical concrete canyons.
Nav_Panel 10y ago
Midtown East is an interesting place. I think part of the reason it remains "nicer" is the allure of Park Ave. That stretch of Park Ave from Grand Central up to 59th is actually owned by the old Penn Railroad. It was cut-and-covered long ago for a Metro-North rail yard, and all the buildings above it lease space from the now-defunct railroad's holding company. And what buildings they are: the Lever building and the Seagram building are two of the most important modernist skyscrapers. And 432 Park Ave is probably the most important building currently under construction. Beyond that, a lot of the neighborhood's culture comes from the elevated lines. The 3rd Ave and 2nd Ave above-ground lines were, for a long time, a boundary. It's easy to watch the neighborhood become more residential (and to see all the old tenement buildings) as you walk east. A lot of college students and young professionals live there now, as well as a growing Japanese population centered around 52nd st. It's clear that Midtown east of 3rd Ave was always residential, if not as wealthy. Midtown west was the exact opposite: heavily industrial. The High Line, now a park, had tons of intermodals for massive, well-known businesses such as Nabisco (the ground floor of which is now Chelsea Market). The piers were used for shipping. 11th Ave was known as "Death Avenue" because of the heavy transportation use. The neighborhood's face was shaped by warehouses, industry, and transportation, resulting in both Tribeca's industrial-chic and Midtown's seeming blocks of nothingness. Hell's Kitchen was a home to the Irish mafia. Times Square was teeming with prostitutes. My feeling is that these histories shaped the development of the neighborhoods, and you still feel it echoing today when you step off a train and onto the island.
- ethanbond 10y ago
  You seem like you might have a good recommendation or two for further reading... I just moved to St Mark's and have been reading up on the history of the area, I'd love to know more about the island as a whole. Do you have any reading advice?
  - Nav_Panel 10y ago
    I learned most of my history from a class I took, so unfortunately I don't have any reading recommendations for history of the island. But I would strongly recommend Robert Caro's biography of Robert Moses "The Power Broker" for better understanding how New York developed throughout the 20th century.

by rm999 10y ago

potatolicious 10y ago

Agree, I think that discounting Midtown entirely as a concrete bore lacks enough nuance. There are certain parts of Midtown that are quite pleasant (well, assuming you're cool with lots of people). Each of the Avenues have their own character, it so happens that 7th Ave and 8th Ave tends to be seedy, under-utilized, deserted, and altogether unpleasant. Compare with, say, 5th Ave or 6th Ave, which even in its most tourist-trap-laden spots are actually reasonably pleasant places to be. Or like you said, further east. I don't really consider Murray Hill/Kips Bay part of Midtown, but even Midtown East (42nd thru 59th) is rather nice and suffers from few/none of the problems that plague 7th and 8th Ave. I think much of the problem comes down to the under-development of the Far West Side. The east side of Manhattan is extensively developed for commercial and residential use all the way to the edge of the water. The west side on the other hand continues to be a mix of light industry, auto shops, warehouses, and general usage that discourages public traffic. The development of Hudson Yards (the form of which I disagree with) will hopefully alleviate some of this problem. As it is the area around Penn serves no useful purpose for anyone besides commuters passing through. The introduction of mass residential and commercial use should hopefully fix some of this.

ghaff 10y ago
In addition to Hudson Yards (which I don't really have an opinion on) and the completion of the High Line's northern end, there's also been a fair bit of other building and, I guess, gentrification in Hell's Kitchen generally. New restaurants, hotels, etc. If I'm going to a show at the Javits and/or want to otherwise be in the vicinity of midtown theaters, that's where I tend to stay these days. It's convenient, has good access to reasonably priced restaurants, and is close to many of the theaters and other Midtown attractions while being outside of Times Square craziness/crush.
- potatolicious 10y ago
  Yes, Hell's Kitchen is nowadays quite nice and it has an impact on the 7th/8th Ave corridor. The stretch of 7th/8th adjacent to Hell's Kitchen is noticeably nicer than the more southern stretches from 23rd thru 42nd. The lack of development west of those areas is definitely a major issue. My main beef with Hudson Yards is that it fails to follow the Manhattan grid, and favors massive complexes with idyllic parks and public spaces between buildings, rather than streets. This is the same fatally flawed planning that has created innumerable empty concrete plazas around the country - that whole area will be defined by the desertedness of its public spaces. Ultimately the best public space are the streets were life and commerce happens, not isolated courtyards between skyscrapers.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    >This is the same fatally flawed planning that has created innumerable empty concrete plazas around the country - that whole area will be defined by the desertedness of its public spaces. I don't disagree with your general point. Boston has one of the worst examples around City Hall (which the city is finally trying to do something about). That said, probably because of its density, much of Manhattan doesn't seem to suffer from empty pocket parks and plazas--at least in nicer weather--to the degree that other cities may. I wonder if the High Line will also help with respect to Hudson Yards specifically although I haven't really taken a close look at the plans.
bradleyjg 10y ago
The area right around Grand Central suffers from too few residential units in proportion to everything else and so ends up feeling a bit sterile. It certainly isn't as bad as over by Penn, but I don't think it is anyone's favorite part of town.
- ghaff 10y ago
  And there are a lot of tall buildings which can make the area immediately uptown from Grand Central in particular feel a lot like the stereotypical concrete canyons.

Nav_Panel 10y ago

Midtown East is an interesting place. I think part of the reason it remains "nicer" is the allure of Park Ave. That stretch of Park Ave from Grand Central up to 59th is actually owned by the old Penn Railroad. It was cut-and-covered long ago for a Metro-North rail yard, and all the buildings above it lease space from the now-defunct railroad's holding company. And what buildings they are: the Lever building and the Seagram building are two of the most important modernist skyscrapers. And 432 Park Ave is probably the most important building currently under construction. Beyond that, a lot of the neighborhood's culture comes from the elevated lines. The 3rd Ave and 2nd Ave above-ground lines were, for a long time, a boundary. It's easy to watch the neighborhood become more residential (and to see all the old tenement buildings) as you walk east. A lot of college students and young professionals live there now, as well as a growing Japanese population centered around 52nd st. It's clear that Midtown east of 3rd Ave was always residential, if not as wealthy. Midtown west was the exact opposite: heavily industrial. The High Line, now a park, had tons of intermodals for massive, well-known businesses such as Nabisco (the ground floor of which is now Chelsea Market). The piers were used for shipping. 11th Ave was known as "Death Avenue" because of the heavy transportation use. The neighborhood's face was shaped by warehouses, industry, and transportation, resulting in both Tribeca's industrial-chic and Midtown's seeming blocks of nothingness. Hell's Kitchen was a home to the Irish mafia. Times Square was teeming with prostitutes. My feeling is that these histories shaped the development of the neighborhoods, and you still feel it echoing today when you step off a train and onto the island.

ethanbond 10y ago
You seem like you might have a good recommendation or two for further reading... I just moved to St Mark's and have been reading up on the history of the area, I'd love to know more about the island as a whole. Do you have any reading advice?
- Nav_Panel 10y ago
  I learned most of my history from a class I took, so unfortunately I don't have any reading recommendations for history of the island. But I would strongly recommend Robert Caro's biography of Robert Moses "The Power Broker" for better understanding how New York developed throughout the 20th century.