13 ms·

Penn Station Reborn

170 points by uptown 10y ago

dluan 10y ago
For the past month I've lived two blocks from Penn Station. In fact, I go through the 34th St Penn Station subway stop at least twice a day. Midtown is such a barren wasteland of concreteness. Walking through the garment district feels like you're a tiny mouse in a gigantic grey maze. If you happen to be on 7th or 8th looking north or south, then you get blinded by the lights of MSG or times square. The entire environment is aggressively imposing and claustrophobic, and going underground into Penn Station is 10x worse. I've ridden the LIRR and NJ transit a few times now, and if I were to go in today I would still get lost. One of the coolest things about Tokyo's train lines is the layers of walkways stacked vertically above roads and between other paths (e.g. shibuya), so that you're often looking into the shared space that's the big public intersection in the middle. It feels more open and there's trees. Cool cities make you feel like you're part of something bigger, and a big factor of that is shared open public space. Penn station makes you feel like a pinball bouncing between turnstiles.
- vdnkh 10y ago
  Midtown Manhattan is a sinfully ugly tourist trap, especially around Penn. I'd argue it's the worst neighborhood by far. It's a twinkle in tourist's eyes but I avoid it like the plague. The thing about Penn too is that it's extremely difficult to calculate your bearings. There's no significant landmarks to orient yourself by - every corridor looks the same. I use Penn regularly and I occasionally get lost if I happen to use a different entrance.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    >it's extremely difficult to calculate your bearings. Yep. I take the train into Penn Station at least a couple times a year and I still invariably walk half a block in the wrong direction before figuring out what direction I'm facing.
  - cuckcuckspruce 10y ago
    Ugh, I remember the first time I rode into Penn Station and had to find the right doors out. That was perhaps the biggest frustration during my entire stay for The Next HOPE in 2010.
  - coredog64 10y ago
    The same thing happened to me at Ueno station in Tokyo. Wandered around until I found an English speaker who could direct me where to go.
  - cafard 10y ago
    The other thing about Penn is that the city dealt with the homeless by removing most of the seating. If you aren't an Acela passenger, you can go into a restaurant or you can stand. I don't really mind standing, but I find it annoying as the only real choice.
    - sampo 10y ago
      Not a lot of seats in the Grand Central, either.
      - sbmassey 10y ago
        There are a bunch downstairs in the food area, if you count that
- untog 10y ago
  I don't care about making midtown cool - there are plenty of cool areas in New York for me to spend my time. I want midtown to be efficient - if that means turning the entire thing into a perfectly square block of concrete, so be it. Penn Station needs to be so much better at one very simple job: getting people in and out of the city.
  - dluan 10y ago
    For the people who only pass through once in a while, sure. But for the people who commute everyday or live close by, it makes a big impact. There was a survey somewhere that said New Yorkers would rather their commute be 4 or 5 minutes longer if it meant it was less crowded or angry, or something like that. If you have to walk through some boring brutalist concrete everyday, your quality of life is going to be lower, whether you're running early or late. Also not everyone in the city has the choice of living some place nicer in NYC. Midtown is where fresh college grads land because it's cheaper and more convenient than the rest of Manhattan, not to mention other immigrants or old people.
    - AndrewUnmuted 10y ago
      Folks who haven't done their research before carelessly moving to the biggest metropolis of the Americas move to the Penn / Herald Square area. It has nothing to do with price. There are far more pleasant and cheap places to live.
      - jrockway 10y ago
        I lived at 6th Ave / 27th St. for a while. I didn't dislike it, other than I don't really like living in "buildings" with 300 other people. It's a fine area, easy to get wherever you want to go by bike or train. I like Brooklyn Heights more... though biking over a bridge-themed-tourist-attraction first thing in the morning is unenjoyable. The picture of the bike on the road does not mean "take your wedding picture here". But I digress.
virgil_disgr4ce 10y ago
I love this—but is there any interactivity? Does it go beyond the short canned animation? I keep clicking everywhere but I guess that was it?
- polpo 10y ago
  I think it's just a video. The meat is in the article below it.
- quux 10y ago
  Scroll down. This took me a few seconds to figure out.
- toxican 10y ago
  In case you didn't realize, scroll down. Lots of information and a few more scroll-triggered animations.
pavement 10y ago
That the old Penn Station was destroyed in 1963, in favor of what stands today really sounds like some kind of horrible urban planning debacle no one likes to think about or talk about anymore. But New York was a different place back then, or so I'm told. Penn Station, the way it is now is just something you sort of shrug at, given the way Midtown is, in general. Everything on 8th Avenue from 23rd Street to 59th Street is seedy and weird, but the creeps and transients really occupy a strip between 34th Street and 42nd Street. I've always figured it was a legacy of The Old 42nd Street, from the 1970's. That place ancient New Yorkers still talk about, from a time before Giulliani's Disnified Times Square took root in the 90's, but honestly who knows. Somtimes I wonder, though, if that part of town would be different now, if Madison Square Garden weren't there, and the original, grander Penn Station had still remained. Throughout the 20th century many other parts of Manhattan endured similar transformations, and even Grand Central went through a period of neglect, but to compare Grand Central to Penn Station now, is like night and day. I figure there's something to that.
- cfmcdonald 10y ago
  Though it happened years before I was born, it frankly still makes me sick to my stomach to think that this secular cathedral: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(1910%E2%80%9363)#/media/File:Penn_Station1.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(1910%E2%... Was destroyed to make way for this rat warren: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(New_York_City)#/media/File:Penn_Station_LIRR_concourse.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(New_York...
  - massysett 10y ago
    I always think of Penn Station as the Edith Keeler [0] of buildings. It had to die. Nationally, Penn Station is worth more as it is now than it ever would have been worth in its original state. I have even (only half-jokingly) mused that it should be landmarked as-is as a cautionary tale. That's what I like about this plan. It takes the evil Madison Square Garden and saves it rather than just tearing it down as Penn Station was. The plan does something new rather than just trying to re-create the old Penn Station. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_on_the_Edge_of_Forever https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_on_the_Edge_of_Foreve...
alexhutcheson 10y ago
As a counterpoint, I'd recommend reading Alon Levy's blog post "Why the Focus On Penn Station?"[1]. The TL;DR is that the 650,000/day ridership number significantly overstates actual ridership, and includes subway ridership that wouldn't really benefit from most proposed improvements. There are far better uses for transit funding in the NYC area. Even within Penn Station, the low-hanging fruit would come by improving the track level (wider platforms/fewer tracks), rather than the concourses. If this piques your interest, Levy's "Eliminate Penn Station" proposal[2] is worth a read, although he admits it's somewhat trollish. [1] https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/quick-note-why-the-focus-on-penn-station/ https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/quic... [2] https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/eliminate-penn-station/ https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/elim...
- bradleyjg 10y ago
  I have to agree. The destruction of the old Penn Station was a tragedy, but it is over and done with. We need to look forward to what the best use of resources is today for the people of NYC. And that's not a pretty building -- it's increased capacity, resiliency, and safety.
  - arbuge 10y ago
    Perhaps, but that mindset is what led to the tragedy you mention in the first place...
    - bradleyjg 10y ago
      I don't think MSG and associated office tower did much good for the people of NYC. They certainly didn't increase capacity, resiliency, and safety of the mass transit system. I was in the WTC transportation hub the other day. That thing cost $3.74 billion dollars, went almost a decade over the original projected completion time, and is not particularly great as a station. It's also in my opinion somewhat ugly, but I'll concede that opinions might differ on that. Meanwhile the subway system, and greater regional transit system has some very critical needs -- things like communications-based train control, positive train control, track maintenance, station maintenance, tunnel repairs, and additional capacity for rapidly growing neighborhoods.
wodahs02 10y ago
This is great. I took accela into Penn Station for 4 years from DC. I always wish they could revitalize that whole area. They can do so much with it. Today it's feels like a 3rd world train station.
helloworld 10y ago
Just a meta note about this article: I loved the swipeable before-and-after graphics. They really helped me understand the proposed design in a way that the words alone couldn't. (BTW, I'm typing this from an Amtrak train bound for Penn Station, which has long been my least favorite place in Manhattan!)
hackuser 10y ago
Every time I see more investment in Manhattan I wonder, would the money be better spent in the other boroughs?
yummyfajitas 10y ago
Realistically, we shouldn't build anything big in NY. The costs are out of control, insanely slow, and wildly unpredictable. No one even knows where the money goes. https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/comparative-subway-construction-costs-revised/ https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/comp... https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/us-rail-construction-costs/ https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/us-r... http://www.wsj.com/article_email/mtas-costs-loom-large-1468803446-lMyQjAxMTE2OTE0ODAxODg5Wj http://www.wsj.com/article_email/mtas-costs-loom-large-14688... What we should do is focus on a completing few small projects with time and budget constraints comparable to the rest of the world (e.g. Spain, Hong Kong or Delhi). This should be done with the goal of excluding all the current people who are robbing us blind (i.e. no MTA workers); bring in French, Japanese or Indian contractors as needed. Once we can build and maintain a transit system at reasonable cost, then we should think about big projects. Until then, why throw good money after bad?
lstyls 10y ago
Did anyone else notice the test string at the bottom of the article?
rspeer 10y ago
This proposal looks beautiful, but a minor point stuck out for me. Putting large maps on the ceiling sounds like a terrible UX that will confuse people more than orient them. You'll end up with one axis that corresponds to actual directions in the real world, while its perpendicular axis is exactly the opposite. If the "north" and "south" ends of the map are actually to the north and south, for example, east and west will be on the wrong sides. If you put all four compass directions in their real-world locations, then the entire map is mirrored when seen from below. Maybe this rat's-eye-view of New York would be appropriate, but it would also be deeply unfamiliar and look like an enormous mistake. There's a really good convention for public maps that are standing up on a sign (left and right correspond to what's to your left and right in the real world, and up corresponds to what's ahead of you), and there's a completely obvious convention for maps on the floor. There's no sensible convention for ceiling maps.
- RockyMcNuts 10y ago
  The Grand Central ceiling star map is reversed, maybe they should do the same in homage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Terminal#Ceiling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Terminal#Ceiling
  - rspeer 10y ago
    Huh. That just sounds like an unnecessary mistake, as a star map is the one kind of map that makes perfect intuitive sense on the ceiling (and its directionality is less intuitive on a piece of paper or a screen). (I could have added that if anyone would understand why a ceiling map of NYC should be mirrored, it would be people who are familiar with star maps or people who play Kerbal Space Program.)
- fumplethumb 10y ago
  I think the map is for aesthetics, not utility. But point taken.
- coleca 10y ago
  Sounds like a great way to get pickpocketed. Lots of disoriented travellers staring up at the ceiling. Then again, maybe it's no different from everyone staring at their phones ignoring the world around them.
sampo 10y ago
For comparison, the new (opened in 2006) Berlin Hauptbahnhof (main railway station) is a similar multilevel open space all the way down to the railway tracks at the bottom, all under a shell of glass walls and ceiling. http://architektur.mapolismagazin.com/sites/default/files/berlin-3.jpg http://architektur.mapolismagazin.com/sites/default/files/be... http://tfrisch.de/wp-content/gallery/u55-berlin/HBF%20Berlin-11.jpg http://tfrisch.de/wp-content/gallery/u55-berlin/HBF%20Berlin... http://www.e-architect.co.uk/images/jpgs/berlin/berlin_hauptbahnhof_aw050909_8.jpg http://www.e-architect.co.uk/images/jpgs/berlin/berlin_haupt... http://awesomeberlin.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/hauptbahn.jpg http://awesomeberlin.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/hauptbah...
- bogomipz 10y ago
  The Berlin Hauptbahnhof is good looking with good functionality. I was there recently and it looked like there was a new phase of construction starting, its also visible in the aerial shot in on one of you links. Any idea what those plans are?
  - detaro 10y ago
    new S-Bahn S21, connecting Hauptbahnhof to Gesundbrunnen (northern "center" of the circle lines)
icehawk219 10y ago
I like this idea as much as I like some of the others I've heard over the years. I was a daily NJ Transit commuter for almost 8 years but am now down to twice a week. Upgrades to Penn Station are as needed as are upgrades to the rest of our nations infrastructure. But to me, therein lies the problem. Infrastructure. Something our country seems hellbent on destroying through neglect. I would love to see one of these big "fix Penn Station" projects be made into a reality and actually have the intended affect, but the cynical part of me (which seems to grow a bit every birthday) simply can't be brought to believe I'll see it happen anytime in the next couple decades. To me Penn Station as it exists today is a prime example of how we've come to treat our vital infrastructure. On an average morning it takes 5+ minutes to get off the platform because it's normal for two, or three, rush hour trains to be unloaded onto a single platform back-to-back which results in thousands of people trying to squeeze up four or five small staircases. Looking around the platform the concrete is cracked, some of it creaks when you walk over it, there are huge chunks of concrete missing everywhere. Lights are constantly out, even when they're on its perpetually dark, everything is covered in a layer of filth. The rest is the same. Cracked walls and ceilings. Filth, trash, stink, and overcrowding everywhere. Perpetually bad lighting. One good delay for any of the transit systems that converge under Penn and it becomes impossible to move as thousands of people stand around hoping for their train to arrive. On the NJ Transit side track numbers aren't posted ahead of time. If you're lucky you might get ~10 minutes notice but during rush hour it's normal for tracks to be posted minutes before departure. So you get train fulls of people rushing back and forth to make it to the few stairs or escalators (which are usually going up even when trains down on the platform are boarding) to get to their train on time. And despite all this Penn Station is vitally important to the area. NJ and NYC's economies benefit immeasurably from it. Even as far as Philadelphia, DC, and Boston. Yet, there it rots and crumbles. For decades. And the best we can do so far is hope for some more fancy computer renderings of something that maybe could make things better. And while we wait delays become more frequent, trains and stations get more crowded, things continue to fall apart, and the costs continue to rise.
- dluan 10y ago
  Seattle just completed a much needed light rail extension north to the UW, and it's gorgeous. Construction only took three years, it works incredibly well, and it's not some ugly building meant to hide from view. It ends up adding a lot to the campus. It's possible, but folks in NYC do seem more used to political inertia and cynical resignation. (http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/03/25/geology-and-art-connect-at-uw-light-rail-station/ http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/03/25/geology-and-art-co...)
TYPE_FASTER 10y ago
NYP is actually the perfect introduction to midtown and Manhattan in general. There are a ton of people moving quickly to a destination in a confusing maze of stuff that you can't find your way out of without asking somebody. At least there's a Taco Bell.
- yolesaber 10y ago
  > a confusing maze of stuff that you can't find your way out of Manhattan above Houston St is basically a grid with an X/Y street / ave system. It's really not that confusing nor a maze
chiph 10y ago
I see similarities in this plan with the new Liege-Guillemins (Belgium) train station. Light, airy, modern. https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2009/sep/16/liege-guillemins-train-station https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2009/sep/16/liege-g... http://www.e-architect.co.uk/belgium/liege-guillemins-tgv-station http://www.e-architect.co.uk/belgium/liege-guillemins-tgv-st...
jrockway 10y ago
I am not sure why everyone cares so much about flash infrastructure. I go to Penn Station to ride the train from time to time. It's fine. You can get a coffee down there. You buy a ticket and get on your train. It's not a work of art, it's not a beautiful space that inspires me to be excellent. But I don't expect it to be, it's a train station. I go there to get on the train. Trump was droning on about this during the debate, how our airports make us look like a third-world country or something. I don't see why anyone cares. I've taken numerous flights in and out of Laguardia. You show up there, go through security, and get on an airplane. I am not looking for excitement or a work of art. It's an airport. I want to be in and out as quickly as possible. I only want two transportation-related improvements -- more service so I can get a seat during the day and not wait around for 30 minutes at night, and positive train control so that I don't die when someone forgets to stop at the last station. Everything else is ego-driven money wasting. (I'm looking at you, Andrew Cuomo.)
- mancerayder 10y ago
  Read icehawk's comment below regarding infrastructure. It's not the lack of works of art, architectural details, or coffee shops that's the issue. As an occasional rider you don't know, but the station hasn't scaled its ridership over the years. Coming up from the tracks or down to there, during rush hour or even a typical weekend, is a slow nightmare. Frequently commuters coming up and down colide and cause a deadlock, as there are no designated up and down areas. The layout is old. The station is large and poorly organized. I was in a very busy station with a bad rap in London a few weeks ago, called Victoria, and while the British complain about everything this station handles multiple commuter lines and several Tube lines with sophisticated aplomb. It's wide and open, like I see the new Penn design is intended to be. It's not an issue of beauty, it's an issue of efficiency and scale. The infrastructure hasn't scaled.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    I think it just proves your point: Victoria Underground Station is considered overcrowded, and is being upgraded at the moment with the construction of additional entrances. It looks like everything new will be underground, so there's not so much room for beauty. Unlike my memories of NYC, it will at least be very well lit and kept clean. https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/victoria https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-proje... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Victoria_station#Current_upgrade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Victoria_station#Curren...
Steko 10y ago
As someone who hasn't been to New York in decades my main interaction with Penn Station has been the regular appearance of Amtrak's Kafkaesque Large Station Boarding Procedures as a whipping horse in Matt Yglesias blog posts [1, for example].Then I realized I hadn't seen one in awhile and maybe Amtrak changed to normal train boarding at major stations. [1] http://www.vox.com/2014/3/31/5563600/everything-you-need-to-know-about-boarding-an-amtrak-train http://www.vox.com/2014/3/31/5563600/everything-you-need-to-...
- ghaff 10y ago
  Nope. No change. However, to Yglesias' post I'd add that, in all fairness, the underground platforms at Penn are really too narrow to have people waiting for the train on the platform and then heading into an assigned car as is common in Europe. So whether or not they checked the ticket at the top of the escalator in Penn, there would still be something of a crush as people went down to the platform from the very congested boarding area. (What is a reasonable question is why Amtrak doesn't actually have reserved seating even on their "all reserved" trains like Acela.)

170 points by uptown 10y ago

dluan 10y ago

For the past month I've lived two blocks from Penn Station. In fact, I go through the 34th St Penn Station subway stop at least twice a day. Midtown is such a barren wasteland of concreteness. Walking through the garment district feels like you're a tiny mouse in a gigantic grey maze. If you happen to be on 7th or 8th looking north or south, then you get blinded by the lights of MSG or times square. The entire environment is aggressively imposing and claustrophobic, and going underground into Penn Station is 10x worse. I've ridden the LIRR and NJ transit a few times now, and if I were to go in today I would still get lost. One of the coolest things about Tokyo's train lines is the layers of walkways stacked vertically above roads and between other paths (e.g. shibuya), so that you're often looking into the shared space that's the big public intersection in the middle. It feels more open and there's trees. Cool cities make you feel like you're part of something bigger, and a big factor of that is shared open public space. Penn station makes you feel like a pinball bouncing between turnstiles.

vdnkh 10y ago
Midtown Manhattan is a sinfully ugly tourist trap, especially around Penn. I'd argue it's the worst neighborhood by far. It's a twinkle in tourist's eyes but I avoid it like the plague. The thing about Penn too is that it's extremely difficult to calculate your bearings. There's no significant landmarks to orient yourself by - every corridor looks the same. I use Penn regularly and I occasionally get lost if I happen to use a different entrance.
- ghaff 10y ago
  >it's extremely difficult to calculate your bearings. Yep. I take the train into Penn Station at least a couple times a year and I still invariably walk half a block in the wrong direction before figuring out what direction I'm facing.
- cuckcuckspruce 10y ago
  Ugh, I remember the first time I rode into Penn Station and had to find the right doors out. That was perhaps the biggest frustration during my entire stay for The Next HOPE in 2010.
- coredog64 10y ago
  The same thing happened to me at Ueno station in Tokyo. Wandered around until I found an English speaker who could direct me where to go.
- cafard 10y ago
  The other thing about Penn is that the city dealt with the homeless by removing most of the seating. If you aren't an Acela passenger, you can go into a restaurant or you can stand. I don't really mind standing, but I find it annoying as the only real choice.
  - sampo 10y ago
    Not a lot of seats in the Grand Central, either.
    - sbmassey 10y ago
      There are a bunch downstairs in the food area, if you count that
untog 10y ago
I don't care about making midtown cool - there are plenty of cool areas in New York for me to spend my time. I want midtown to be efficient - if that means turning the entire thing into a perfectly square block of concrete, so be it. Penn Station needs to be so much better at one very simple job: getting people in and out of the city.
- dluan 10y ago
  For the people who only pass through once in a while, sure. But for the people who commute everyday or live close by, it makes a big impact. There was a survey somewhere that said New Yorkers would rather their commute be 4 or 5 minutes longer if it meant it was less crowded or angry, or something like that. If you have to walk through some boring brutalist concrete everyday, your quality of life is going to be lower, whether you're running early or late. Also not everyone in the city has the choice of living some place nicer in NYC. Midtown is where fresh college grads land because it's cheaper and more convenient than the rest of Manhattan, not to mention other immigrants or old people.
  - AndrewUnmuted 10y ago
    Folks who haven't done their research before carelessly moving to the biggest metropolis of the Americas move to the Penn / Herald Square area. It has nothing to do with price. There are far more pleasant and cheap places to live.
    - jrockway 10y ago
      I lived at 6th Ave / 27th St. for a while. I didn't dislike it, other than I don't really like living in "buildings" with 300 other people. It's a fine area, easy to get wherever you want to go by bike or train. I like Brooklyn Heights more... though biking over a bridge-themed-tourist-attraction first thing in the morning is unenjoyable. The picture of the bike on the road does not mean "take your wedding picture here". But I digress.

virgil_disgr4ce 10y ago

I love this—but is there any interactivity? Does it go beyond the short canned animation? I keep clicking everywhere but I guess that was it?

polpo 10y ago
I think it's just a video. The meat is in the article below it.
quux 10y ago
Scroll down. This took me a few seconds to figure out.
toxican 10y ago
In case you didn't realize, scroll down. Lots of information and a few more scroll-triggered animations.

pavement 10y ago

That the old Penn Station was destroyed in 1963, in favor of what stands today really sounds like some kind of horrible urban planning debacle no one likes to think about or talk about anymore. But New York was a different place back then, or so I'm told. Penn Station, the way it is now is just something you sort of shrug at, given the way Midtown is, in general. Everything on 8th Avenue from 23rd Street to 59th Street is seedy and weird, but the creeps and transients really occupy a strip between 34th Street and 42nd Street. I've always figured it was a legacy of The Old 42nd Street, from the 1970's. That place ancient New Yorkers still talk about, from a time before Giulliani's Disnified Times Square took root in the 90's, but honestly who knows. Somtimes I wonder, though, if that part of town would be different now, if Madison Square Garden weren't there, and the original, grander Penn Station had still remained. Throughout the 20th century many other parts of Manhattan endured similar transformations, and even Grand Central went through a period of neglect, but to compare Grand Central to Penn Station now, is like night and day. I figure there's something to that.

cfmcdonald 10y ago
Though it happened years before I was born, it frankly still makes me sick to my stomach to think that this secular cathedral: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(1910%E2%80%9363)#/media/File:Penn_Station1.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(1910%E2%... Was destroyed to make way for this rat warren: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(New_York_City)#/media/File:Penn_Station_LIRR_concourse.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(New_York...
- massysett 10y ago
  I always think of Penn Station as the Edith Keeler [0] of buildings. It had to die. Nationally, Penn Station is worth more as it is now than it ever would have been worth in its original state. I have even (only half-jokingly) mused that it should be landmarked as-is as a cautionary tale. That's what I like about this plan. It takes the evil Madison Square Garden and saves it rather than just tearing it down as Penn Station was. The plan does something new rather than just trying to re-create the old Penn Station. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_on_the_Edge_of_Forever https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_on_the_Edge_of_Foreve...

alexhutcheson 10y ago

As a counterpoint, I'd recommend reading Alon Levy's blog post "Why the Focus On Penn Station?"[1]. The TL;DR is that the 650,000/day ridership number significantly overstates actual ridership, and includes subway ridership that wouldn't really benefit from most proposed improvements. There are far better uses for transit funding in the NYC area. Even within Penn Station, the low-hanging fruit would come by improving the track level (wider platforms/fewer tracks), rather than the concourses. If this piques your interest, Levy's "Eliminate Penn Station" proposal[2] is worth a read, although he admits it's somewhat trollish. [1] https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/quick-note-why-the-focus-on-penn-station/ https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/quic... [2] https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/eliminate-penn-station/ https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/elim...

bradleyjg 10y ago
I have to agree. The destruction of the old Penn Station was a tragedy, but it is over and done with. We need to look forward to what the best use of resources is today for the people of NYC. And that's not a pretty building -- it's increased capacity, resiliency, and safety.
- arbuge 10y ago
  Perhaps, but that mindset is what led to the tragedy you mention in the first place...
  - bradleyjg 10y ago
    I don't think MSG and associated office tower did much good for the people of NYC. They certainly didn't increase capacity, resiliency, and safety of the mass transit system. I was in the WTC transportation hub the other day. That thing cost $3.74 billion dollars, went almost a decade over the original projected completion time, and is not particularly great as a station. It's also in my opinion somewhat ugly, but I'll concede that opinions might differ on that. Meanwhile the subway system, and greater regional transit system has some very critical needs -- things like communications-based train control, positive train control, track maintenance, station maintenance, tunnel repairs, and additional capacity for rapidly growing neighborhoods.

wodahs02 10y ago

This is great. I took accela into Penn Station for 4 years from DC. I always wish they could revitalize that whole area. They can do so much with it. Today it's feels like a 3rd world train station.

helloworld 10y ago

Just a meta note about this article: I loved the swipeable before-and-after graphics. They really helped me understand the proposed design in a way that the words alone couldn't. (BTW, I'm typing this from an Amtrak train bound for Penn Station, which has long been my least favorite place in Manhattan!)

hackuser 10y ago

Every time I see more investment in Manhattan I wonder, would the money be better spent in the other boroughs?

yummyfajitas 10y ago

Realistically, we shouldn't build anything big in NY. The costs are out of control, insanely slow, and wildly unpredictable. No one even knows where the money goes. https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/comparative-subway-construction-costs-revised/ https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/comp... https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/us-rail-construction-costs/ https://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/us-r... http://www.wsj.com/article_email/mtas-costs-loom-large-1468803446-lMyQjAxMTE2OTE0ODAxODg5Wj http://www.wsj.com/article_email/mtas-costs-loom-large-14688... What we should do is focus on a completing few small projects with time and budget constraints comparable to the rest of the world (e.g. Spain, Hong Kong or Delhi). This should be done with the goal of excluding all the current people who are robbing us blind (i.e. no MTA workers); bring in French, Japanese or Indian contractors as needed. Once we can build and maintain a transit system at reasonable cost, then we should think about big projects. Until then, why throw good money after bad?

lstyls 10y ago

Did anyone else notice the test string at the bottom of the article?

rspeer 10y ago

This proposal looks beautiful, but a minor point stuck out for me. Putting large maps on the ceiling sounds like a terrible UX that will confuse people more than orient them. You'll end up with one axis that corresponds to actual directions in the real world, while its perpendicular axis is exactly the opposite. If the "north" and "south" ends of the map are actually to the north and south, for example, east and west will be on the wrong sides. If you put all four compass directions in their real-world locations, then the entire map is mirrored when seen from below. Maybe this rat's-eye-view of New York would be appropriate, but it would also be deeply unfamiliar and look like an enormous mistake. There's a really good convention for public maps that are standing up on a sign (left and right correspond to what's to your left and right in the real world, and up corresponds to what's ahead of you), and there's a completely obvious convention for maps on the floor. There's no sensible convention for ceiling maps.

RockyMcNuts 10y ago
The Grand Central ceiling star map is reversed, maybe they should do the same in homage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Terminal#Ceiling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Terminal#Ceiling
- rspeer 10y ago
  Huh. That just sounds like an unnecessary mistake, as a star map is the one kind of map that makes perfect intuitive sense on the ceiling (and its directionality is less intuitive on a piece of paper or a screen). (I could have added that if anyone would understand why a ceiling map of NYC should be mirrored, it would be people who are familiar with star maps or people who play Kerbal Space Program.)
fumplethumb 10y ago
I think the map is for aesthetics, not utility. But point taken.
coleca 10y ago
Sounds like a great way to get pickpocketed. Lots of disoriented travellers staring up at the ceiling. Then again, maybe it's no different from everyone staring at their phones ignoring the world around them.

sampo 10y ago

For comparison, the new (opened in 2006) Berlin Hauptbahnhof (main railway station) is a similar multilevel open space all the way down to the railway tracks at the bottom, all under a shell of glass walls and ceiling. http://architektur.mapolismagazin.com/sites/default/files/berlin-3.jpg http://architektur.mapolismagazin.com/sites/default/files/be... http://tfrisch.de/wp-content/gallery/u55-berlin/HBF%20Berlin-11.jpg http://tfrisch.de/wp-content/gallery/u55-berlin/HBF%20Berlin... http://www.e-architect.co.uk/images/jpgs/berlin/berlin_hauptbahnhof_aw050909_8.jpg http://www.e-architect.co.uk/images/jpgs/berlin/berlin_haupt... http://awesomeberlin.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/hauptbahn.jpg http://awesomeberlin.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/hauptbah...

bogomipz 10y ago
The Berlin Hauptbahnhof is good looking with good functionality. I was there recently and it looked like there was a new phase of construction starting, its also visible in the aerial shot in on one of you links. Any idea what those plans are?
- detaro 10y ago
  new S-Bahn S21, connecting Hauptbahnhof to Gesundbrunnen (northern "center" of the circle lines)

icehawk219 10y ago

I like this idea as much as I like some of the others I've heard over the years. I was a daily NJ Transit commuter for almost 8 years but am now down to twice a week. Upgrades to Penn Station are as needed as are upgrades to the rest of our nations infrastructure. But to me, therein lies the problem. Infrastructure. Something our country seems hellbent on destroying through neglect. I would love to see one of these big "fix Penn Station" projects be made into a reality and actually have the intended affect, but the cynical part of me (which seems to grow a bit every birthday) simply can't be brought to believe I'll see it happen anytime in the next couple decades. To me Penn Station as it exists today is a prime example of how we've come to treat our vital infrastructure. On an average morning it takes 5+ minutes to get off the platform because it's normal for two, or three, rush hour trains to be unloaded onto a single platform back-to-back which results in thousands of people trying to squeeze up four or five small staircases. Looking around the platform the concrete is cracked, some of it creaks when you walk over it, there are huge chunks of concrete missing everywhere. Lights are constantly out, even when they're on its perpetually dark, everything is covered in a layer of filth. The rest is the same. Cracked walls and ceilings. Filth, trash, stink, and overcrowding everywhere. Perpetually bad lighting. One good delay for any of the transit systems that converge under Penn and it becomes impossible to move as thousands of people stand around hoping for their train to arrive. On the NJ Transit side track numbers aren't posted ahead of time. If you're lucky you might get ~10 minutes notice but during rush hour it's normal for tracks to be posted minutes before departure. So you get train fulls of people rushing back and forth to make it to the few stairs or escalators (which are usually going up even when trains down on the platform are boarding) to get to their train on time. And despite all this Penn Station is vitally important to the area. NJ and NYC's economies benefit immeasurably from it. Even as far as Philadelphia, DC, and Boston. Yet, there it rots and crumbles. For decades. And the best we can do so far is hope for some more fancy computer renderings of something that maybe could make things better. And while we wait delays become more frequent, trains and stations get more crowded, things continue to fall apart, and the costs continue to rise.

dluan 10y ago
Seattle just completed a much needed light rail extension north to the UW, and it's gorgeous. Construction only took three years, it works incredibly well, and it's not some ugly building meant to hide from view. It ends up adding a lot to the campus. It's possible, but folks in NYC do seem more used to political inertia and cynical resignation. (http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/03/25/geology-and-art-connect-at-uw-light-rail-station/ http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/03/25/geology-and-art-co...)

TYPE_FASTER 10y ago

NYP is actually the perfect introduction to midtown and Manhattan in general. There are a ton of people moving quickly to a destination in a confusing maze of stuff that you can't find your way out of without asking somebody. At least there's a Taco Bell.

yolesaber 10y ago
> a confusing maze of stuff that you can't find your way out of Manhattan above Houston St is basically a grid with an X/Y street / ave system. It's really not that confusing nor a maze

chiph 10y ago

I see similarities in this plan with the new Liege-Guillemins (Belgium) train station. Light, airy, modern. https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2009/sep/16/liege-guillemins-train-station https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2009/sep/16/liege-g... http://www.e-architect.co.uk/belgium/liege-guillemins-tgv-station http://www.e-architect.co.uk/belgium/liege-guillemins-tgv-st...

jrockway 10y ago

I am not sure why everyone cares so much about flash infrastructure. I go to Penn Station to ride the train from time to time. It's fine. You can get a coffee down there. You buy a ticket and get on your train. It's not a work of art, it's not a beautiful space that inspires me to be excellent. But I don't expect it to be, it's a train station. I go there to get on the train. Trump was droning on about this during the debate, how our airports make us look like a third-world country or something. I don't see why anyone cares. I've taken numerous flights in and out of Laguardia. You show up there, go through security, and get on an airplane. I am not looking for excitement or a work of art. It's an airport. I want to be in and out as quickly as possible. I only want two transportation-related improvements -- more service so I can get a seat during the day and not wait around for 30 minutes at night, and positive train control so that I don't die when someone forgets to stop at the last station. Everything else is ego-driven money wasting. (I'm looking at you, Andrew Cuomo.)

mancerayder 10y ago
Read icehawk's comment below regarding infrastructure. It's not the lack of works of art, architectural details, or coffee shops that's the issue. As an occasional rider you don't know, but the station hasn't scaled its ridership over the years. Coming up from the tracks or down to there, during rush hour or even a typical weekend, is a slow nightmare. Frequently commuters coming up and down colide and cause a deadlock, as there are no designated up and down areas. The layout is old. The station is large and poorly organized. I was in a very busy station with a bad rap in London a few weeks ago, called Victoria, and while the British complain about everything this station handles multiple commuter lines and several Tube lines with sophisticated aplomb. It's wide and open, like I see the new Penn design is intended to be. It's not an issue of beauty, it's an issue of efficiency and scale. The infrastructure hasn't scaled.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  I think it just proves your point: Victoria Underground Station is considered overcrowded, and is being upgraded at the moment with the construction of additional entrances. It looks like everything new will be underground, so there's not so much room for beauty. Unlike my memories of NYC, it will at least be very well lit and kept clean. https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/victoria https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-proje... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Victoria_station#Current_upgrade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Victoria_station#Curren...

Steko 10y ago

As someone who hasn't been to New York in decades my main interaction with Penn Station has been the regular appearance of Amtrak's Kafkaesque Large Station Boarding Procedures as a whipping horse in Matt Yglesias blog posts [1, for example].Then I realized I hadn't seen one in awhile and maybe Amtrak changed to normal train boarding at major stations. [1] http://www.vox.com/2014/3/31/5563600/everything-you-need-to-know-about-boarding-an-amtrak-train http://www.vox.com/2014/3/31/5563600/everything-you-need-to-...

ghaff 10y ago
Nope. No change. However, to Yglesias' post I'd add that, in all fairness, the underground platforms at Penn are really too narrow to have people waiting for the train on the platform and then heading into an assigned car as is common in Europe. So whether or not they checked the ticket at the top of the escalator in Penn, there would still be something of a crush as people went down to the platform from the very congested boarding area. (What is a reasonable question is why Amtrak doesn't actually have reserved seating even on their "all reserved" trains like Acela.)