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But when they go to hospital and need treatment suddenly science is a-ok I find this statement to be disingenuous. I would be hard pressed to believe that (mos

But when they go to hospital and need treatment suddenly science is a-ok I find this statement to be disingenuous. I would be hard pressed to believe that (most) creationists are against science in general or think that science itself is generally wrong. In fact, they seem to try to make scientific type arguments, and I'd suspect that most IDers believe that the arguments are in fact good science.

jacquesm 16y ago
It isn't disingenuous in the least. Science is a method. You either accept that method or you don't, you can't pick and choose. If you are not an expert biologist you probably shouldn't hold expert opinions on the subject, just as you are probably not an expert surgeon so you shouldn't hold expert opinions on surgery. To choose science for one specialty but pseudo science or dogma for another is inconsistent. The scientific method has brought us both surgery and insight in how we came to be here and so on. It's hypocrisy to claim special knowledge about our origins absence any evidence, but to be happy with the fruits of all that labour when it suits you. I prefer the (true) Mennonites in this respect, at least they are more or less consistent in their beliefs and their application of those beliefs. That doesn't make them less wrong, but they are at least not guilty of hypocrisy. You can't be against evolution and against science at the same time, evolution is science, and science at its best. Just like science put men on the moon and freed us from the shackles of the church it will occasionally cause a change of belief, either by replacing a wrong theory with a better one or by proving a widely held belief to be false. The only reason the ID'ers try to make scientific type arguments is to sound more plausible when faced with scientific opposition, not because they've suddenly seen the light. And dazzling the masses with pseudo science is a great way of confusing the issue, right up to the claim that ID is just another 'theory' that should be given equal time in education.
- roundsquare 16y ago
  You either accept that method or you don't, you can't pick and choose. To choose science for one specialty but pseudo science or dogma for another is inconsistent. Yes you can (edit for clarity: Yes you can use dogma for one domain and science for another). It is perfectly consistent to say that the word of god is the ultimate truth but where god is silent on an issue science is the next best thing. There is no a priori reason to claim that the scientific method will give more accurate results than the word of god. The fact that science needs to keep updating itself is, for some (most?) people evidence enough that it can't be as accurate as the word of god. But, thats not my point. Most people get whatever knowledge they have of science from sources several level removed from the scientist. As a result, they don't get access to see the true science. Instead, they take what they hear from (seemingly) credible sources and trust it. Maybe they put some thought into the arguments given but generally they don't, especially if no one is disputing what they hear. With evolution though, there's people yelling at them from both sides. Both sides use what seem to be logical sounding arguments (though, under close inspection, one side's logic breaks down). In addition, one side also claims to represent god, which they are told is the ultimate truth. In their minds therefore it becomes: Science vs Science + Ultimate Truth It doesn't take a genius to see which side would win in that battle. However, with medicine, God appears to be essentially silent on the matter. There are no options to weight. Everyone agrees. Nice and simple. So yes, there is some hypocrisy, but its limited to the politically motivated few who are pushing the ID agenda. The masses are not guilty of true hypocrisy.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    God is silent on all issues. It's men talking, pretending to be speaking in the name of god, and using the gullible masses to prey upon them and create power structures. That's a bit of a difference. I think the bigger problem here is that science is simply hard work and that even for a lay person to understand all but the most basic science requires some serious dedication. Much easier to believe someone that claims to have all the answers in an easy to digest form with a catch all clause at the end. ("God did it"). When science was 'new' (as in, when it started to replace the various gods of old) it wasn't seen as much of a threat, and when it did the occasional scientist found himself put on 'trial' and silenced or murdered. Now the whole of science is on trial, with the ignorant masses used as an endless supply of funds to further the goals of a few scared old men. It's a sad state of affairs. In a time when information is available to all those that want it, it is disappointing to see that so many prefer to live in a life of illusion. We have real problems and all the time and effort that goes in to reducing reproductive rights, the affairs of consenting adults and to put the lie to our origins is taking valuable time and energy away from more pressing issues. Modern medicine would not be possible without a rigorous application of the scientific method. DNA evidence is used in courts of law. Speciation has been observed under laboratory conditions. And yet there are those that would deny others the knowledge of these truths to further their own goals and to extend their power.

jacquesm 16y ago

It isn't disingenuous in the least. Science is a method. You either accept that method or you don't, you can't pick and choose. If you are not an expert biologist you probably shouldn't hold expert opinions on the subject, just as you are probably not an expert surgeon so you shouldn't hold expert opinions on surgery. To choose science for one specialty but pseudo science or dogma for another is inconsistent. The scientific method has brought us both surgery and insight in how we came to be here and so on. It's hypocrisy to claim special knowledge about our origins absence any evidence, but to be happy with the fruits of all that labour when it suits you. I prefer the (true) Mennonites in this respect, at least they are more or less consistent in their beliefs and their application of those beliefs. That doesn't make them less wrong, but they are at least not guilty of hypocrisy. You can't be against evolution and against science at the same time, evolution is science, and science at its best. Just like science put men on the moon and freed us from the shackles of the church it will occasionally cause a change of belief, either by replacing a wrong theory with a better one or by proving a widely held belief to be false. The only reason the ID'ers try to make scientific type arguments is to sound more plausible when faced with scientific opposition, not because they've suddenly seen the light. And dazzling the masses with pseudo science is a great way of confusing the issue, right up to the claim that ID is just another 'theory' that should be given equal time in education.

roundsquare 16y ago
You either accept that method or you don't, you can't pick and choose. To choose science for one specialty but pseudo science or dogma for another is inconsistent. Yes you can (edit for clarity: Yes you can use dogma for one domain and science for another). It is perfectly consistent to say that the word of god is the ultimate truth but where god is silent on an issue science is the next best thing. There is no a priori reason to claim that the scientific method will give more accurate results than the word of god. The fact that science needs to keep updating itself is, for some (most?) people evidence enough that it can't be as accurate as the word of god. But, thats not my point. Most people get whatever knowledge they have of science from sources several level removed from the scientist. As a result, they don't get access to see the true science. Instead, they take what they hear from (seemingly) credible sources and trust it. Maybe they put some thought into the arguments given but generally they don't, especially if no one is disputing what they hear. With evolution though, there's people yelling at them from both sides. Both sides use what seem to be logical sounding arguments (though, under close inspection, one side's logic breaks down). In addition, one side also claims to represent god, which they are told is the ultimate truth. In their minds therefore it becomes: Science vs Science + Ultimate Truth It doesn't take a genius to see which side would win in that battle. However, with medicine, God appears to be essentially silent on the matter. There are no options to weight. Everyone agrees. Nice and simple. So yes, there is some hypocrisy, but its limited to the politically motivated few who are pushing the ID agenda. The masses are not guilty of true hypocrisy.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  God is silent on all issues. It's men talking, pretending to be speaking in the name of god, and using the gullible masses to prey upon them and create power structures. That's a bit of a difference. I think the bigger problem here is that science is simply hard work and that even for a lay person to understand all but the most basic science requires some serious dedication. Much easier to believe someone that claims to have all the answers in an easy to digest form with a catch all clause at the end. ("God did it"). When science was 'new' (as in, when it started to replace the various gods of old) it wasn't seen as much of a threat, and when it did the occasional scientist found himself put on 'trial' and silenced or murdered. Now the whole of science is on trial, with the ignorant masses used as an endless supply of funds to further the goals of a few scared old men. It's a sad state of affairs. In a time when information is available to all those that want it, it is disappointing to see that so many prefer to live in a life of illusion. We have real problems and all the time and effort that goes in to reducing reproductive rights, the affairs of consenting adults and to put the lie to our origins is taking valuable time and energy away from more pressing issues. Modern medicine would not be possible without a rigorous application of the scientific method. DNA evidence is used in courts of law. Speciation has been observed under laboratory conditions. And yet there are those that would deny others the knowledge of these truths to further their own goals and to extend their power.