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> I think that's called slavery. That seems like the direct opposite of giving people agency and, if anything, the attitude that created all these problems in t

> I think that's called slavery. That seems like the direct opposite of giving people agency and, if anything, the attitude that created all these problems in the first place. People aren't given agency by other people, they're born with it. Agency can be denied a person though, especially when they break serious-enough laws. That's all I'm talking about. Now I just need to convince enough people to agree with me that scoffing the "must live in a domicile" law dips into the felony range of crimes. I contend it's not humane to allow people to live on the street. It's in no one's interest for people in the community to live dangerously like that. Depending on the person's situation, a break from their downward spiral might set them on a path back upward. There's no guarantee the individual will be helped by incarceration, but it's needed for the health of the community. And incarceration due to homelessness wouldn't be permanent, they didn't murder anyone by sleeping on the street. Obviously, jailing a person for homelessness doesn't fit the crime, too. Case workers would have to decide what to do with people depending on their situation. Return them to their family? Send them to a workhouse to do their time on the farm? Put them in a home to get medical or mental care? I think this is where the social safety net needs the $$$ concentration. You think the prison industrial complex shouldn't extend to the homeless? Ok, let's write the laws that way: every dollar a person earns at a workhouse goes to them once they leave the house.

nitrogen 10y ago
Agency is an illusion of our neurology. Our thoughts and actions are determined (or at least constrained within a small set of random possibilities) at any given moment by our genetics and our past environment.
- EdSharkey 10y ago
  I agree, I cannot find weakness in your arguments. I wish I could upvote you more than once. :) "Illusion" strikes me as having a negative connotation, though. Could we say "Agency is the result of computation in our neurons" instead? We run simulations in our sleep to solve for problems we encountered the previous day. We're simulating things all the time with our computers. We're not mindless automata, I'm sure. Although 'mind' could just be explained by the small set of random possibilities you refer to. But, I suspect that because I can ponder about what you've written and not segfault and die means I'm not mindless.
projektir 10y ago
> People aren't given agency by other people, they're born with it. That's most certainly not true. How much agency does an infant have? How much agency does a human raised illiterate far away from civilization have? I would say that humans definitely get a significant amount of their agency from society and their parents. The agency of an individual human is very much dependent on what kind of information they were exposed to and other factors, but not all humans have the same level of agency.
- EdSharkey 10y ago
  Sure, a small child, infant, and nascent zygote human are helpless and cannot be self-sustaining. Great point. I'll restrict myself to adults who have the capability to act upon the world for this discussion from here on out. > How much agency does a human raised illiterate far away from civilization have? Is your definition of agency in this context, * the state of being in action or of exerting power; operation, or * a means of exerting power or influence; instrumentality? Nothing in those definitions have anything to do with literacy or society. It seems to me that an adult far away from civilization has as much agency as his brains and muscles can deliver: there's no rules for that person to be concerned with other than laws of nature. They're able to exercise their raw humanity. Obviously, such an adult lacks the amplifying powers of chemicals, electricity, computers, transport, etc that we have. But, who are we to judge the power/potential/quality of a feral human adult in the wild to do incredible things with his environment? Agency is a trait, not a quantity, and that's why it's a birthright. (It can be denied a person, however.) Just do some thought experiments. What's the most powerful thing you could imagine yourself accomplishing before you died if we dropped you off in the wilderness with nothing but the clothes on your back? Don't just stop at "curl up and die", really shoot for the moon. I came up with some amazing things. Now, if you were to argue that humans have nearly limitless potential but are impotent to realize that potential without the work of others, then I'd say you're on to something really profound and worth exploring and optimizing for, philosophical. But, I think what you've stated here is that an individual apart from society somehow has diminished agency. You're either confusing concepts or underestimating man.

nitrogen 10y ago

Agency is an illusion of our neurology. Our thoughts and actions are determined (or at least constrained within a small set of random possibilities) at any given moment by our genetics and our past environment.

EdSharkey 10y ago
I agree, I cannot find weakness in your arguments. I wish I could upvote you more than once. :) "Illusion" strikes me as having a negative connotation, though. Could we say "Agency is the result of computation in our neurons" instead? We run simulations in our sleep to solve for problems we encountered the previous day. We're simulating things all the time with our computers. We're not mindless automata, I'm sure. Although 'mind' could just be explained by the small set of random possibilities you refer to. But, I suspect that because I can ponder about what you've written and not segfault and die means I'm not mindless.

projektir 10y ago

> People aren't given agency by other people, they're born with it. That's most certainly not true. How much agency does an infant have? How much agency does a human raised illiterate far away from civilization have? I would say that humans definitely get a significant amount of their agency from society and their parents. The agency of an individual human is very much dependent on what kind of information they were exposed to and other factors, but not all humans have the same level of agency.

EdSharkey 10y ago
Sure, a small child, infant, and nascent zygote human are helpless and cannot be self-sustaining. Great point. I'll restrict myself to adults who have the capability to act upon the world for this discussion from here on out. > How much agency does a human raised illiterate far away from civilization have? Is your definition of agency in this context, * the state of being in action or of exerting power; operation, or * a means of exerting power or influence; instrumentality? Nothing in those definitions have anything to do with literacy or society. It seems to me that an adult far away from civilization has as much agency as his brains and muscles can deliver: there's no rules for that person to be concerned with other than laws of nature. They're able to exercise their raw humanity. Obviously, such an adult lacks the amplifying powers of chemicals, electricity, computers, transport, etc that we have. But, who are we to judge the power/potential/quality of a feral human adult in the wild to do incredible things with his environment? Agency is a trait, not a quantity, and that's why it's a birthright. (It can be denied a person, however.) Just do some thought experiments. What's the most powerful thing you could imagine yourself accomplishing before you died if we dropped you off in the wilderness with nothing but the clothes on your back? Don't just stop at "curl up and die", really shoot for the moon. I came up with some amazing things. Now, if you were to argue that humans have nearly limitless potential but are impotent to realize that potential without the work of others, then I'd say you're on to something really profound and worth exploring and optimizing for, philosophical. But, I think what you've stated here is that an individual apart from society somehow has diminished agency. You're either confusing concepts or underestimating man.