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>>Unfortunately, the prevailing social zeitgeist in the US is that not everyone deserves to be saved- you have to earn the right to be deemed worthy enough to b

>>Unfortunately, the prevailing social zeitgeist in the US is that not everyone deserves to be saved- you have to earn the right to be deemed worthy enough to be saved, and really if you find yourself in a position where you need to be saved then it's probably your own fault and you should bootstrap your way out of it. The puritanical mindset is very, very strong and all-prevailing in the US. I wasn't sure how to parse this exactly but I was curious if you are actually correct here so I had a look at the General Social Survey[0]. The closest thing I could find to your post was the question of "EVERYONE SHOULD LOOK OUT FOR SELF"[1] and it looks like 67.7 percent of Americans disagree with that statement. In light of that fact, how do you defend your contrary position? [0]http://sda.berkeley.edu/gss http://sda.berkeley.edu/gss [1]Put EQUAL1 as the row variable then click "Run the table"

kempbellt 10y ago
Maybe the people who took that survey are acting out of self interest?
sn9 10y ago
How you frame the question can produce vastly different responses. That said, I'd say the perception of Americans being selfish has more to do with our terrible electoral system in which the incentives are such that we elect politicians that, in aggregate, portray a more selfish representation of our populace than really is there. This is how you get polls saying large majorities of Americans believe in Issue X, but you have Congressmen and POTUS arguing over whether or not to implement Issue X.
- nathanasmith 10y ago
  >>How you frame the question can produce vastly different responses. Here are some of the questions on the GSS: In our society everyone must look out for himself. It is of little use to unite with others and fight for one's goals in politics or in unions. 67.7 percent disagreed It is the responsibility of government to meet everyone's needs, even in case of sickness, poverty, unemployment, and old age. 57.3 percent agreed If social welfare benefits such as disability, unemployment compensation, and early retirement pensions are as high as they are now, it only makes people not want to work anymore. 54 percent disagreed Note that the GSS is cited more often academically than any other survey other than the US census so it carries some weight.
  - hysan 10y ago
    That first statement is hard to agree with because it takes an all-or-nothing stance in a broad manner (must + little use). Most people will disagree because there is probably a "I don't 100% agree" reaction to it. You'd probably get the same reaction going in the opposite direction. In our society everyone must work together to succeed. It is of little use to try and effect change alone as one person cannot make a difference in politics or work. Meanwhile, the other two statements are much more direct on the stance being questioned. The examples are the only open ended part as interpretations can differ between people, but they are still clear enough to get the intended meaning across.
    - nathanasmith 10y ago
      >>Most people will disagree because there is probably a "I don't 100% agree" reaction to it. I was trying not to be too wordy in my post but the "disagree" is actually 2 categories split between "mostly disagree" and "strongly disagree" so that covers the "I don't 100% agree" people. Note that there's also "strongly and somewhat agree" categories. Here's the upshot of this thread. The OP I was replying to made a reference to the "prevailing zeitgeist" in America believing people should be "saved" only if they prove their worth. I checked the most widely respected social survey and it contradicts that assertion by a wide margin. As far as the questions being biased or people 100 percent agreeing as has been mentioned, either a couple of random internet commenters are right or the most cited source in mainstream social science[0] is. Personally I'll go with the latter. [0]http://gss.norc.org/About-The-GSS http://gss.norc.org/About-The-GSS
      - hysan 10y ago
        I think paraphrasing to reduce wordiness made the GSS seem far less objective in your comment. I'm sure you'd agree that losing that nuance, for someone who doesn't know much about the GSS, makes that question look... questionable. The community on HN is here for good discussion so I don't think you need to worry about writing too much. Especially if it helps people understand.

kempbellt 10y ago

Maybe the people who took that survey are acting out of self interest?

sn9 10y ago

How you frame the question can produce vastly different responses. That said, I'd say the perception of Americans being selfish has more to do with our terrible electoral system in which the incentives are such that we elect politicians that, in aggregate, portray a more selfish representation of our populace than really is there. This is how you get polls saying large majorities of Americans believe in Issue X, but you have Congressmen and POTUS arguing over whether or not to implement Issue X.

nathanasmith 10y ago
>>How you frame the question can produce vastly different responses. Here are some of the questions on the GSS: In our society everyone must look out for himself. It is of little use to unite with others and fight for one's goals in politics or in unions. 67.7 percent disagreed It is the responsibility of government to meet everyone's needs, even in case of sickness, poverty, unemployment, and old age. 57.3 percent agreed If social welfare benefits such as disability, unemployment compensation, and early retirement pensions are as high as they are now, it only makes people not want to work anymore. 54 percent disagreed Note that the GSS is cited more often academically than any other survey other than the US census so it carries some weight.
- hysan 10y ago
  That first statement is hard to agree with because it takes an all-or-nothing stance in a broad manner (must + little use). Most people will disagree because there is probably a "I don't 100% agree" reaction to it. You'd probably get the same reaction going in the opposite direction. In our society everyone must work together to succeed. It is of little use to try and effect change alone as one person cannot make a difference in politics or work. Meanwhile, the other two statements are much more direct on the stance being questioned. The examples are the only open ended part as interpretations can differ between people, but they are still clear enough to get the intended meaning across.
  - nathanasmith 10y ago
    >>Most people will disagree because there is probably a "I don't 100% agree" reaction to it. I was trying not to be too wordy in my post but the "disagree" is actually 2 categories split between "mostly disagree" and "strongly disagree" so that covers the "I don't 100% agree" people. Note that there's also "strongly and somewhat agree" categories. Here's the upshot of this thread. The OP I was replying to made a reference to the "prevailing zeitgeist" in America believing people should be "saved" only if they prove their worth. I checked the most widely respected social survey and it contradicts that assertion by a wide margin. As far as the questions being biased or people 100 percent agreeing as has been mentioned, either a couple of random internet commenters are right or the most cited source in mainstream social science[0] is. Personally I'll go with the latter. [0]http://gss.norc.org/About-The-GSS http://gss.norc.org/About-The-GSS
    - hysan 10y ago
      I think paraphrasing to reduce wordiness made the GSS seem far less objective in your comment. I'm sure you'd agree that losing that nuance, for someone who doesn't know much about the GSS, makes that question look... questionable. The community on HN is here for good discussion so I don't think you need to worry about writing too much. Especially if it helps people understand.