4 ms·

That is a travesty of our justice system (or maybe any justice system). The more money you have, the better your lawyers, the better deals can be cut. The rich

That is a travesty of our justice system (or maybe any justice system). The more money you have, the better your lawyers, the better deals can be cut. The rich & upper middle-class will probably just get off with a slap on the wrist (if that). The poor & lower-middle class with not so many means and court appointed lawyers get the harshest sentences and are basically used as statistics for your public prosecutors promotion and advertisement.

rayiner 10y ago
I think that's an overly simplistic view. Are prosecutors dropping shoplifting charges for "upper middle class" people because they brought in an $1,000/hour lawyer? Real life prosecutors aren't quite so cartoon villain-y. The bigger issue is that (1) laws are enforced more harshly in poor areas because there is pressure on prosecutors to focus on high-crime areas; (2) poor people are much more likely to be within one degree of separation of someone the cops are interested in. In many schools in poor neighborhoods, "kids are essentially assigned a gang affiliation." http://www.npr.org/2013/02/21/172593743/chicago-kids-say-theyre-assigned-to-gangs http://www.npr.org/2013/02/21/172593743/chicago-kids-say-the.... In an upper class suburb, a shoplifting charge is easy to dismiss as youthful indiscretion. In a gang-infested inner city neighborhood, where the perpetrator might have friends or family with known gang affiliations, it becomes very easy (if not fair or just) to see an indiscretion as a sign of something much bigger.
- tptacek 10y ago
  Yes, I believe they are. Prosecutors try to spend their time on the cases they can win. You don't even have to be criminally charged to see how farcical the system is: just go to traffic court sometime and watch how the system handles people with lawyers.
  - dsacco 10y ago
    Speaking as someone who has never gone to traffic court, can you tell me how the system handles people with lawyers versus people without lawyers?
    - zardo 10y ago
      My lawyer turned a moving violation into a no seatbelt ticket. This had zero basis in reality. I didn't get points on my licence, but still had to pay a fine. People without lawyers didn't know that all that's really important is that you pay fines to the court. You're taking the court's time and you have to pay for it. They tried to deny they sped, the cop said they did, and the ticket stuck.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      We answered this on crypto nerd Slack but I'll repeat for the benefit of the class: In Cook County, at least, you're given a time to appear in court. Everyone appears at that time. Cases are handled in alphabetical order. But: if you have a lawyer, your case is handled first --- the lawyers are on the clock, you see --- so there's about an hour and a half of waiting for lawyer after lawyer to come up and get their clients cases dismissed, while everyone else sits doing nothing.
      - shaggerty 10y ago
        How would myself or anyone else interested get on the crypto nerd slack?
        tptacek 10y ago
        I guess mail me and introduce yourself? It's not like super selective or anything.
        dsacco 10y ago
        Don't forget the human sacrifice to the crypto-god. No but in all seriousness it's a good time if you like talking/learning/debating cryptography and general security things.
      - tedunangst 10y ago
        That's somewhat weak evidence for your original claim. (Which I don't dispute, but you've lowered the bar here.) How do much do outcomes differ for Mr. Zanzibar with a lawyer and Mr. Ali without a lawyer?
- bsder 10y ago
  > Are prosecutors dropping shoplifting charges for "upper middle class" people because they brought in an $1,000/hour lawyer? Yes, they are. It's not this blatant, but the result is the same. First, the rich person has probably been told, repeatedly, "Shut the fuck up, and only talk to your lawyer." This is a HUGE deal and helps your end result dramatically. Second, the rich person likely doesn't have to worry about losing their job or coordinating child care while being missing for 24 hours due to incarceration. Third, the rich person doesn't have to worry about making bail. Fourth, you mentioned "social separation". Agreed. The richer person likely has a closer contact to a friend inside the justice system. That helps. Fifth, a rich person is more likely to "look" not guilty. So both the prosecution and defense negotiate with that in their heads. Sixth, the rich person likely knows English well and understands the cultural norms. This is a significant advantage. For example, in the southwest US, more than a few Hispanics wind up pleading guilty to having underage sex thinking it's not a big deal without realizing that they're about to have a felony on their record. Seventh, the rich person understands navigating a bureaucracy. Do NOT underestimate this skill. A lot of lower class people don't realize the power that lower level functionaries have and wind up pissing them off to their detriment. The number of times I have seen people mouthing off to someone in the probation office makes me cry. Finally, your lawyer likely knows the inside game. He knows that this judge likes to slam young punks, so he'll try to avoid him for stupid pot offenses. He knows that this judge is getting back from vacation on this day and is likely in a good mood so he can get a better deal. He knows that this judges hates DUI's, etc. The list goes on and on ... So, the prosecutor doesn't actually think: "He's rich, so I won't prosecute this so hard." But at every point where a decision can go for or against, there's a bit of bias in the rich person's favor distributed throughout the system. Eventually that multiplies up to a big advantage.
  - noobiemcfoob 10y ago
    > So, the prosecutor doesn't actually think: "He's rich, so I won't prosecute this so hard." But at every point where a decision can go for or against, there's a bit of bias in the rich person's favor distributed throughout the system. This is absolutely critical and I think best explains that undercurrent of things like "subconscious racism".
- zardo 10y ago
  It's not villainy, prosecutors (largely) simply don't see promoting social equity as their job. They get paid to bring successful prosecutions. That's the metric of success and lots of successful prosecutions will advance their careers. If you can afford legal representation you get a lawyer who spends more than five minutes preparing to defend you. The prosecution is less likely to succeed, so the prosecutor is more willing to deal.
CM30 10y ago
I've always wondered why we don't just get rid of private lawyers and legal teams. That way, no one has an advantage or disadvantage. Even the wealthiest get one guy chosen by the court and no other assistance whatsoever and we see lots of rich kids going to prison as a result.
- aninhumer 10y ago
  But how do you get rid of legal teams? Maybe you can insist on court appointed lawyers in court, but you can't really stop people with legal knowledge selling research and advice to rich people.
- bsder 10y ago
  > I've always wondered why we don't just get rid of private lawyers and legal teams. Because bringing the quality of someone else's defense down does not solve the fundamental problems of the justice system. The problem is that the justice system is unfair to the poor, PERIOD. And we need to fix that. The problem is not putting more rich kids in jail. In my opinion, the better change is to remove things like prosecutorial discretion for juries. If the prosecution can't make the case without stacking the deck, he shouldn't be making it.
  - krapht 10y ago
    That's a poor opinion. I wonder if a prosecutor without that discretion would've ever been able to make a civil rights charge stick in 60s Alabama in any majority-white county.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    I don't think so. If the lawyer pool is so terrible, there will be people with incentive to fix it, and those fixes will benefit everyone, rather than the few it benefits now.
int_19h 10y ago
It's not just the lawyers. It's even much more basic and mundane stuff, like fines and fees. Say you parked your car in a wrong spot - a mistake that many people make at least once in their life. In US (and many other countries), the fine for that is a fixed amount. For some people it's pretty much chump change, while for the others it can be the difference between paying a different bill late or not. Yet others can't pay the ticket at all, and then there's a fine for not doing that. If you're poor enough, you can easily rack up thousands of dollars in debt to the government for something as trivial as parking in a wrong spot, or having a broken taillight (which you don't have money to fix). Then you get an arrest warrant, and that's when court fees and lawyer fees start piling in - on top of everything you've already accrued. And, of course, because you can't post bail, they lock you up, and by the time you get out (assuming you're lucky with your public defender and do get out), you have probably lost your job. If you're especially unlucky, you may have also lost your rental, and your things have been thrown out onto the street. Worse yet, some municipalities have learned the rules of that game, and decided that they want a cut. Ferguson is a prominent example, but it is one among many. http://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-fines-and-fees-fuel-anger http://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-fi... How do you fix it? Well, insofar as fines are meant to be punitive, you scale them to the income of the person being fined, for example.

rayiner 10y ago

I think that's an overly simplistic view. Are prosecutors dropping shoplifting charges for "upper middle class" people because they brought in an $1,000/hour lawyer? Real life prosecutors aren't quite so cartoon villain-y. The bigger issue is that (1) laws are enforced more harshly in poor areas because there is pressure on prosecutors to focus on high-crime areas; (2) poor people are much more likely to be within one degree of separation of someone the cops are interested in. In many schools in poor neighborhoods, "kids are essentially assigned a gang affiliation." http://www.npr.org/2013/02/21/172593743/chicago-kids-say-theyre-assigned-to-gangs http://www.npr.org/2013/02/21/172593743/chicago-kids-say-the.... In an upper class suburb, a shoplifting charge is easy to dismiss as youthful indiscretion. In a gang-infested inner city neighborhood, where the perpetrator might have friends or family with known gang affiliations, it becomes very easy (if not fair or just) to see an indiscretion as a sign of something much bigger.

tptacek 10y ago
Yes, I believe they are. Prosecutors try to spend their time on the cases they can win. You don't even have to be criminally charged to see how farcical the system is: just go to traffic court sometime and watch how the system handles people with lawyers.
- dsacco 10y ago
  Speaking as someone who has never gone to traffic court, can you tell me how the system handles people with lawyers versus people without lawyers?
  - zardo 10y ago
    My lawyer turned a moving violation into a no seatbelt ticket. This had zero basis in reality. I didn't get points on my licence, but still had to pay a fine. People without lawyers didn't know that all that's really important is that you pay fines to the court. You're taking the court's time and you have to pay for it. They tried to deny they sped, the cop said they did, and the ticket stuck.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    We answered this on crypto nerd Slack but I'll repeat for the benefit of the class: In Cook County, at least, you're given a time to appear in court. Everyone appears at that time. Cases are handled in alphabetical order. But: if you have a lawyer, your case is handled first --- the lawyers are on the clock, you see --- so there's about an hour and a half of waiting for lawyer after lawyer to come up and get their clients cases dismissed, while everyone else sits doing nothing.
    - shaggerty 10y ago
      How would myself or anyone else interested get on the crypto nerd slack?
      - tptacek 10y ago
        I guess mail me and introduce yourself? It's not like super selective or anything.
        dsacco 10y ago
        Don't forget the human sacrifice to the crypto-god. No but in all seriousness it's a good time if you like talking/learning/debating cryptography and general security things.
    - tedunangst 10y ago
      That's somewhat weak evidence for your original claim. (Which I don't dispute, but you've lowered the bar here.) How do much do outcomes differ for Mr. Zanzibar with a lawyer and Mr. Ali without a lawyer?
bsder 10y ago
> Are prosecutors dropping shoplifting charges for "upper middle class" people because they brought in an $1,000/hour lawyer? Yes, they are. It's not this blatant, but the result is the same. First, the rich person has probably been told, repeatedly, "Shut the fuck up, and only talk to your lawyer." This is a HUGE deal and helps your end result dramatically. Second, the rich person likely doesn't have to worry about losing their job or coordinating child care while being missing for 24 hours due to incarceration. Third, the rich person doesn't have to worry about making bail. Fourth, you mentioned "social separation". Agreed. The richer person likely has a closer contact to a friend inside the justice system. That helps. Fifth, a rich person is more likely to "look" not guilty. So both the prosecution and defense negotiate with that in their heads. Sixth, the rich person likely knows English well and understands the cultural norms. This is a significant advantage. For example, in the southwest US, more than a few Hispanics wind up pleading guilty to having underage sex thinking it's not a big deal without realizing that they're about to have a felony on their record. Seventh, the rich person understands navigating a bureaucracy. Do NOT underestimate this skill. A lot of lower class people don't realize the power that lower level functionaries have and wind up pissing them off to their detriment. The number of times I have seen people mouthing off to someone in the probation office makes me cry. Finally, your lawyer likely knows the inside game. He knows that this judge likes to slam young punks, so he'll try to avoid him for stupid pot offenses. He knows that this judge is getting back from vacation on this day and is likely in a good mood so he can get a better deal. He knows that this judges hates DUI's, etc. The list goes on and on ... So, the prosecutor doesn't actually think: "He's rich, so I won't prosecute this so hard." But at every point where a decision can go for or against, there's a bit of bias in the rich person's favor distributed throughout the system. Eventually that multiplies up to a big advantage.
- noobiemcfoob 10y ago
  > So, the prosecutor doesn't actually think: "He's rich, so I won't prosecute this so hard." But at every point where a decision can go for or against, there's a bit of bias in the rich person's favor distributed throughout the system. This is absolutely critical and I think best explains that undercurrent of things like "subconscious racism".
zardo 10y ago
It's not villainy, prosecutors (largely) simply don't see promoting social equity as their job. They get paid to bring successful prosecutions. That's the metric of success and lots of successful prosecutions will advance their careers. If you can afford legal representation you get a lawyer who spends more than five minutes preparing to defend you. The prosecution is less likely to succeed, so the prosecutor is more willing to deal.

CM30 10y ago

I've always wondered why we don't just get rid of private lawyers and legal teams. That way, no one has an advantage or disadvantage. Even the wealthiest get one guy chosen by the court and no other assistance whatsoever and we see lots of rich kids going to prison as a result.

aninhumer 10y ago
But how do you get rid of legal teams? Maybe you can insist on court appointed lawyers in court, but you can't really stop people with legal knowledge selling research and advice to rich people.
bsder 10y ago
> I've always wondered why we don't just get rid of private lawyers and legal teams. Because bringing the quality of someone else's defense down does not solve the fundamental problems of the justice system. The problem is that the justice system is unfair to the poor, PERIOD. And we need to fix that. The problem is not putting more rich kids in jail. In my opinion, the better change is to remove things like prosecutorial discretion for juries. If the prosecution can't make the case without stacking the deck, he shouldn't be making it.
- krapht 10y ago
  That's a poor opinion. I wonder if a prosecutor without that discretion would've ever been able to make a civil rights charge stick in 60s Alabama in any majority-white county.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  I don't think so. If the lawyer pool is so terrible, there will be people with incentive to fix it, and those fixes will benefit everyone, rather than the few it benefits now.

int_19h 10y ago

It's not just the lawyers. It's even much more basic and mundane stuff, like fines and fees. Say you parked your car in a wrong spot - a mistake that many people make at least once in their life. In US (and many other countries), the fine for that is a fixed amount. For some people it's pretty much chump change, while for the others it can be the difference between paying a different bill late or not. Yet others can't pay the ticket at all, and then there's a fine for not doing that. If you're poor enough, you can easily rack up thousands of dollars in debt to the government for something as trivial as parking in a wrong spot, or having a broken taillight (which you don't have money to fix). Then you get an arrest warrant, and that's when court fees and lawyer fees start piling in - on top of everything you've already accrued. And, of course, because you can't post bail, they lock you up, and by the time you get out (assuming you're lucky with your public defender and do get out), you have probably lost your job. If you're especially unlucky, you may have also lost your rental, and your things have been thrown out onto the street. Worse yet, some municipalities have learned the rules of that game, and decided that they want a cut. Ferguson is a prominent example, but it is one among many. http://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-fines-and-fees-fuel-anger http://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/343143937/in-ferguson-court-fi... How do you fix it? Well, insofar as fines are meant to be punitive, you scale them to the income of the person being fined, for example.