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The most important thing nobody teaches lower class people is how to work "the system." "work hard" is the catch phrase everybody shouts from the roof tops. I

The most important thing nobody teaches lower class people is how to work "the system." "work hard" is the catch phrase everybody shouts from the roof tops. It's a lot like tax filing / accounting, or hiring a lawyer for a public trial. In the case of the lawyer, society has recognized how absolutely hopeless it would be to defend yourself in criminal court, and the law entitles every individual to an attorney. A lawyer helps you navigate the 'courts system'. Tax filing is similar but less extreme. You can make a simple error on your taxes, or grossly overpay without an accountant. An accountant helps you navigate the 'tax system'. Everyone with some level of wealth understands the value of a good lawyer or a good accountant. To make it simple: when you're coming from poverty there are many important things that "you don't know that you don't know". Coming from wealth, you have the advantage of "knowing about what you don't know".

mixmastamyk 10y ago
So, what they need is some sort of advocate to show them the ropes. Sounds doable, if approached respectfully. Vaguely reminds me of the book "Rich dad, poor dad."
- pnathan 10y ago
  > what they need is some sort of advocate In brief, because I'm at my day job: no. That is not the right approach. That is the approach that gets one labeled an elitist and a snob. It's not appreciated by the little people you're trying to help. The correct approach is one which maximizes agency. This will have a wider variance of success, but will be received far better.
  - mixmastamyk 10y ago
    That's why I wrote "respectfully".
    - ducttapecrown 10y ago
      Offering aid without first having been asked for it could be considered disrespectful, condescending, etc.
      - mixmastamyk 10y ago
        Do you honestly believe I'd advocate forcing or pressuring people? How bout a little less defeatism. No, I'm thinking something like coaching for people who are looking for a way up.
        int_19h 10y ago
        Honestly, a lot of this kind of coaching belongs as a mandatory class in school.
    - pnathan 10y ago
      Very simply, there's a reason the rural joke goes like this: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help". It's just not appreciated. If you want to genuinely assist, you have to find ways that cohere with the culture and traditions of the place you're trying to support. The Outsider from California is an old meme. It's captured in this very very popular postcard found throughout Montana/Idaho: http://duckboy.com/postcards/all-postcards/more-californians-no-doubt.html http://duckboy.com/postcards/all-postcards/more-californians... I'm willing to bet based on certain comments earlier this year, the Outsider from NYC is a similar figure in the eastern part of the US. And, of course, "DC" or "Washington" is similarly vilified across the nation. So, you're an advocate coming in from your position of privilege: you are, in humor, an alien, and you purport to teach the people, in all best of intentions, how to do better. It's not that you're wrong. You just can't get to where you want from here without profound and deep disruption. Does this make sense here? If this is the sort of thing that interests you, you'll want to be looking at working with the local civic minded community pillars. Pastors, teachers, principals, mayors, doctors, etc. People with influence and understandings of the local culture. People with generational roots, bluntly. There is a fierce, fierce, fierce independence and individualism: coming in and telling people how to live isn't appreciated. This is, by the by, virtually a Hollywood stereotype- the well intentioned urbanite helping out the rurals. :-) I don't know that I have much more to say on HN... if you want to take up this thread at length, my email is in my profile. :-)
  - drakonandor 10y ago
    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The only way some people will learn to listen is by failing on their own.
- Terr_ 10y ago
  Ehhh, I dunno: > The schtick behind the Rich Dad books was that Kiyosaki was sharing secret money-making strategies of the wealthy with his wage slave readers. The tips ran the gamut from ridiculous to illegal and downright hurtful and included advocating for insider trading, arguing for the purchase of multiple real estate properties with little or no money down and telling followers they could purchase stocks on margin via unfunded brokerage accounts. Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/helaineolen/2012/10/10/rich-dad-poor-dad-bankrupt-dad/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/helaineolen/2012/10/10/rich-dad-...
  - mixmastamyk 10y ago
    I only read one of them, but it advocated no such things. Basically it told the story of a father who encouraged entrepreneurship (thinking big) vs. one that focused on stability and benefits above all else (thinking small). In fact we see the same story play out day to day on HN.
pnathan 10y ago
This is a huge point. The knowledge (social, interpersonal, financial, image) gap between 'comfortably poor' and 'white collar professional' is deep and broad. College is valuable in that it makes - can make - the difference between a broad gap and a narrow gap. Most of that is not the substance of the courses, but the substance of the collegiate community. Often I have difficulty coming up with the appropriate words to describe to my peers brought up in the professional environment how very different life is when you're not in the white collar world.
gxs 10y ago
I agree with you but you picked bad examples. I can hire an accountant, I can hire a lawyer. I can't hire someone to interact with other people for me in a way that gives off the "I'm one of you" vibe.

mixmastamyk 10y ago

So, what they need is some sort of advocate to show them the ropes. Sounds doable, if approached respectfully. Vaguely reminds me of the book "Rich dad, poor dad."

pnathan 10y ago
> what they need is some sort of advocate In brief, because I'm at my day job: no. That is not the right approach. That is the approach that gets one labeled an elitist and a snob. It's not appreciated by the little people you're trying to help. The correct approach is one which maximizes agency. This will have a wider variance of success, but will be received far better.
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  That's why I wrote "respectfully".
  - ducttapecrown 10y ago
    Offering aid without first having been asked for it could be considered disrespectful, condescending, etc.
    - mixmastamyk 10y ago
      Do you honestly believe I'd advocate forcing or pressuring people? How bout a little less defeatism. No, I'm thinking something like coaching for people who are looking for a way up.
      - int_19h 10y ago
        Honestly, a lot of this kind of coaching belongs as a mandatory class in school.
  - pnathan 10y ago
    Very simply, there's a reason the rural joke goes like this: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help". It's just not appreciated. If you want to genuinely assist, you have to find ways that cohere with the culture and traditions of the place you're trying to support. The Outsider from California is an old meme. It's captured in this very very popular postcard found throughout Montana/Idaho: http://duckboy.com/postcards/all-postcards/more-californians-no-doubt.html http://duckboy.com/postcards/all-postcards/more-californians... I'm willing to bet based on certain comments earlier this year, the Outsider from NYC is a similar figure in the eastern part of the US. And, of course, "DC" or "Washington" is similarly vilified across the nation. So, you're an advocate coming in from your position of privilege: you are, in humor, an alien, and you purport to teach the people, in all best of intentions, how to do better. It's not that you're wrong. You just can't get to where you want from here without profound and deep disruption. Does this make sense here? If this is the sort of thing that interests you, you'll want to be looking at working with the local civic minded community pillars. Pastors, teachers, principals, mayors, doctors, etc. People with influence and understandings of the local culture. People with generational roots, bluntly. There is a fierce, fierce, fierce independence and individualism: coming in and telling people how to live isn't appreciated. This is, by the by, virtually a Hollywood stereotype- the well intentioned urbanite helping out the rurals. :-) I don't know that I have much more to say on HN... if you want to take up this thread at length, my email is in my profile. :-)
- drakonandor 10y ago
  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The only way some people will learn to listen is by failing on their own.
Terr_ 10y ago
Ehhh, I dunno: > The schtick behind the Rich Dad books was that Kiyosaki was sharing secret money-making strategies of the wealthy with his wage slave readers. The tips ran the gamut from ridiculous to illegal and downright hurtful and included advocating for insider trading, arguing for the purchase of multiple real estate properties with little or no money down and telling followers they could purchase stocks on margin via unfunded brokerage accounts. Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/helaineolen/2012/10/10/rich-dad-poor-dad-bankrupt-dad/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/helaineolen/2012/10/10/rich-dad-...
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  I only read one of them, but it advocated no such things. Basically it told the story of a father who encouraged entrepreneurship (thinking big) vs. one that focused on stability and benefits above all else (thinking small). In fact we see the same story play out day to day on HN.

pnathan 10y ago

This is a huge point. The knowledge (social, interpersonal, financial, image) gap between 'comfortably poor' and 'white collar professional' is deep and broad. College is valuable in that it makes - can make - the difference between a broad gap and a narrow gap. Most of that is not the substance of the courses, but the substance of the collegiate community. Often I have difficulty coming up with the appropriate words to describe to my peers brought up in the professional environment how very different life is when you're not in the white collar world.

gxs 10y ago

I agree with you but you picked bad examples. I can hire an accountant, I can hire a lawyer. I can't hire someone to interact with other people for me in a way that gives off the "I'm one of you" vibe.