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> It seems the actual fiat currency part worked fine. I don't think Bitcoin is made at will out of thin air like flat currency routinely is. You can still argu

> It seems the actual fiat currency part worked fine. I don't think Bitcoin is made at will out of thin air like flat currency routinely is. You can still argue that this is not a problem with flat currency itself, but the problem is, unlike Bitcoin, the laws regarding printing and production of flat currency are not governed by hard-to-break math.

eli 10y ago
As a consumer, I'm not sure I care.
- EdHominem 10y ago
  Right, you don't care how the wings are held on the aircraft either, but you do care that it's done correctly...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - bduerst 10y ago
    Consumers trust the economists who designed it, the same way you trust the engineers when you step onto an aircraft.
rhino369 10y ago
Bitcoin is made at will out of thin air. It's just an arbitrary amount created every day. The creation rate was just picked by whoever created it. I think it can actually be changed by concensus. I see no reason why an arbitrary rate is better than a rate chosen to minimize inflation and deflation. Bitcoin basically is a fiat currency, except no government forces people to use it.
- zajd 10y ago
  The irony being if something like Fusion power happened bitcoin hyperinflation would be guaranteed.
  - bduerst 10y ago
    Or when quantum computing breaks ECDSA and allows you to deduce Bitcoin holders' private keys.
  - AsyncAwait 10y ago
    Yeah, let's speculate about far-fetched hypotheticals, because flat currency is totally immune to these.
    - zajd 10y ago
      it's fiat, not flat smh
      - AsyncAwait 10y ago
        That's what you get for relying too much on autocorrect...
  - EdHominem 10y ago
    No, the difficulty would rise but the number of "coins" created would be constant and they'd cost the same because the same dollar-value of electricity was spent generating them.
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  > I see no reason why an arbitrary rate is better than a rate chosen to minimize inflation and deflation. It's not about the rate, but about the EXACT rules being agreed upon up front by the MAJORITY of the network and actually enforced by a proven algorithm, rather than people's conscience alone.
dlp211 10y ago
> I don't think Bitcoin is made at will out of thin air like flat currency routinely is. This is a gross oversimplification of how the vast majority of central banks(ie: the ones that matter) handle their fiat currency. In theory, yes, they could just print money, in practice, they don't "just print money".
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  I kind of assumed that is enough to get the point across, but my point was that a flat currency relies too much on the moral code of a few human actors, whereas in Bitcoin, the contract agreed upon by the majority of the network is not enforced by humans, but by a cryptographic protocol.
  - Mickydtron 10y ago
    A well designed fiat currency system would not rely on the moral code of humans, but rather on having created an incentive structure such that the actors in power are pushed towards doing the correct thing. We have not fully accomplished this, but it is a state that we can strive towards. It is important to note that fiat currency is not based on the idea that we can reliably find and promote saints to run it (at least in theory).
hackcasual 10y ago
But it's not really based on math. A majority of miners could decide, say after the next halvening that future block rewards should be held as is. Sure, it would split the network, but a majority of miners may decide it's in their economic interest to do so.
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  I guess I could have phrased it better, but the point is that the majority of the network needs to decide something and the enforcement of the decided upon rules is based on math, rather than good morals.
  - dsjoerg 10y ago
    the future of Bitcoin/USD is decided by a shadowy cabal of bankers/miners
- EdHominem 10y ago
  If they fork it's effectively the same as them switching to a totally new coin with entirely different branding. NewBitcoin is no more threatening that Ethereum. There's nothing they can do that gets rid of your bitcoin though. That's the "math" point. As long as they're on the main chain the rules (expressible as math) prevent arbitrary creation or destruction of coins.
zajd 10y ago
Unfortunately for Bitcoin all of the issues 99% people have with fiat currency today have literally nothing to do with how money is created. Yes, it's a difficult problem to solve. No, Bitcoin has not solved it. Piggybacking on the electrical grid to turn "fairness" into "how much electricity you can afford"... how is that fair?
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  I haven't said it's "fair", only that there's a proven algorithm behind it, which I'll trust more than the goodness of human nature alone.
  - zajd 10y ago
    I don't trust the goodness of human nature, I trust the legal and financial system that we've collectively built over the past millennia. Which actually does (at least attempts to) enforce some level of fairness. Why should I sign up to have the future of the financial system be controlled by an "algorithm" that is built on a technology (non-quantum crypto) that could be dead in less than 50 years?
    - EdHominem 10y ago
      > I don't trust the goodness of human nature, I trust the legal and financial system that we've collectively built over the past millennia. I don't like X, I love X. Your distrust of human nature has caused you to double-down on trusting human nature. Those elaborate systems to counter human nature are built on, get this, more human nature. > the future of the financial system be controlled by an "algorithm" that is built on a technology (non-quantum crypto) that could be dead in less than 50 years? Well, it's only one coin, with one algorithm, and people are pricing that into its value. But show me a better system. Not even the USD has a 50-year guarantee. Not only are your dollars likely worth 10% of their current value in fifty years, but there's an even chance that something has wiped their value out completely. You're just irrationally afraid of crypto risk and irrationally accepting of human risk. > Why should I sign up Oh, I see your issue... Don't worry, nobody wants your permission any more than they do with USD. You don't need to, and can't, do anything.
bduerst 10y ago
I can't tell if you trying arguing that a deflationary currency like Bitcoin is somehow better, or if you're just using this an excuse to gripe about a government organization. In either case it's not relevant to the article.

eli 10y ago

As a consumer, I'm not sure I care.

EdHominem 10y ago
Right, you don't care how the wings are held on the aircraft either, but you do care that it's done correctly...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- bduerst 10y ago
  Consumers trust the economists who designed it, the same way you trust the engineers when you step onto an aircraft.

rhino369 10y ago

Bitcoin is made at will out of thin air. It's just an arbitrary amount created every day. The creation rate was just picked by whoever created it. I think it can actually be changed by concensus. I see no reason why an arbitrary rate is better than a rate chosen to minimize inflation and deflation. Bitcoin basically is a fiat currency, except no government forces people to use it.

zajd 10y ago
The irony being if something like Fusion power happened bitcoin hyperinflation would be guaranteed.
- bduerst 10y ago
  Or when quantum computing breaks ECDSA and allows you to deduce Bitcoin holders' private keys.
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  Yeah, let's speculate about far-fetched hypotheticals, because flat currency is totally immune to these.
  - zajd 10y ago
    it's fiat, not flat smh
    - AsyncAwait 10y ago
      That's what you get for relying too much on autocorrect...
- EdHominem 10y ago
  No, the difficulty would rise but the number of "coins" created would be constant and they'd cost the same because the same dollar-value of electricity was spent generating them.
AsyncAwait 10y ago
> I see no reason why an arbitrary rate is better than a rate chosen to minimize inflation and deflation. It's not about the rate, but about the EXACT rules being agreed upon up front by the MAJORITY of the network and actually enforced by a proven algorithm, rather than people's conscience alone.

dlp211 10y ago

> I don't think Bitcoin is made at will out of thin air like flat currency routinely is. This is a gross oversimplification of how the vast majority of central banks(ie: the ones that matter) handle their fiat currency. In theory, yes, they could just print money, in practice, they don't "just print money".

AsyncAwait 10y ago
I kind of assumed that is enough to get the point across, but my point was that a flat currency relies too much on the moral code of a few human actors, whereas in Bitcoin, the contract agreed upon by the majority of the network is not enforced by humans, but by a cryptographic protocol.
- Mickydtron 10y ago
  A well designed fiat currency system would not rely on the moral code of humans, but rather on having created an incentive structure such that the actors in power are pushed towards doing the correct thing. We have not fully accomplished this, but it is a state that we can strive towards. It is important to note that fiat currency is not based on the idea that we can reliably find and promote saints to run it (at least in theory).

hackcasual 10y ago

But it's not really based on math. A majority of miners could decide, say after the next halvening that future block rewards should be held as is. Sure, it would split the network, but a majority of miners may decide it's in their economic interest to do so.

AsyncAwait 10y ago
I guess I could have phrased it better, but the point is that the majority of the network needs to decide something and the enforcement of the decided upon rules is based on math, rather than good morals.
- dsjoerg 10y ago
  the future of Bitcoin/USD is decided by a shadowy cabal of bankers/miners
EdHominem 10y ago
If they fork it's effectively the same as them switching to a totally new coin with entirely different branding. NewBitcoin is no more threatening that Ethereum. There's nothing they can do that gets rid of your bitcoin though. That's the "math" point. As long as they're on the main chain the rules (expressible as math) prevent arbitrary creation or destruction of coins.

zajd 10y ago

Unfortunately for Bitcoin all of the issues 99% people have with fiat currency today have literally nothing to do with how money is created. Yes, it's a difficult problem to solve. No, Bitcoin has not solved it. Piggybacking on the electrical grid to turn "fairness" into "how much electricity you can afford"... how is that fair?

AsyncAwait 10y ago
I haven't said it's "fair", only that there's a proven algorithm behind it, which I'll trust more than the goodness of human nature alone.
- zajd 10y ago
  I don't trust the goodness of human nature, I trust the legal and financial system that we've collectively built over the past millennia. Which actually does (at least attempts to) enforce some level of fairness. Why should I sign up to have the future of the financial system be controlled by an "algorithm" that is built on a technology (non-quantum crypto) that could be dead in less than 50 years?
  - EdHominem 10y ago
    > I don't trust the goodness of human nature, I trust the legal and financial system that we've collectively built over the past millennia. I don't like X, I love X. Your distrust of human nature has caused you to double-down on trusting human nature. Those elaborate systems to counter human nature are built on, get this, more human nature. > the future of the financial system be controlled by an "algorithm" that is built on a technology (non-quantum crypto) that could be dead in less than 50 years? Well, it's only one coin, with one algorithm, and people are pricing that into its value. But show me a better system. Not even the USD has a 50-year guarantee. Not only are your dollars likely worth 10% of their current value in fifty years, but there's an even chance that something has wiped their value out completely. You're just irrationally afraid of crypto risk and irrationally accepting of human risk. > Why should I sign up Oh, I see your issue... Don't worry, nobody wants your permission any more than they do with USD. You don't need to, and can't, do anything.

bduerst 10y ago

I can't tell if you trying arguing that a deflationary currency like Bitcoin is somehow better, or if you're just using this an excuse to gripe about a government organization. In either case it's not relevant to the article.