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Can I ask a couple of naive questions (I'm not very well informed on these issues): 1. Since electric cars may well be powered by coal, not gasoline, might the

by mbroshi 10y ago

Can I ask a couple of naive questions (I'm not very well informed on these issues): 1. Since electric cars may well be powered by coal, not gasoline, might they not be more heavily emitting? 2. Does the environmental impact of creating and disposing all the batteries in electric cars counterbalance any emission gains?

dmoy 10y ago
1. Possibly, but typically not. A huge power plant is generally much more efficient and less emitting per watt than a tiny internal combustion engine. (Depends on the power plant...) 2. No idea sorry.
Retric 10y ago
1a.) Car engines are far less efficient and more polluting because they need to be portable, compact, and quickly operate over a wide power range. 1b.) Coal + Natural gas is generally less than 50% of electricity generation. 1c.) Oil takes a lot more effort to get to your car than coal does to a power plant combined with electricity transmission and storage. This indirect effect is huge. Net effect, gas cars create a lot more pollution per mile. 2) To some degree, however batteries can also be recycled.
ZeroGravitas 10y ago
EVs are still better taking both these issues (and some others that aren't immediately obvious) into account: http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-... Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave "Over their lifetime, battery electric vehicles produce far less global warming pollution than their gasoline counterparts—and they’re getting cleaner." "We found that battery electric cars generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for."
- sandworm101 10y ago
  According to the graph in the OP, battery-powered EVs have roughly 1/2 the lifecycle emissions. That's certainly lower and a good thing, but not a fundamental change given what needs to be done. I'd have to do the math, but it would seem that the switch from gas to electric is roughly as beneficial as the past switch from carburetors to fuel injection. It looks incremental rather than revolutionary. And I think there is much improvement to be made. These numbers are American cars, so I assume they aren't diesel and are for generally larger cars than in europe. Has a diesel-electric hybrid ever been sold in the US?
  - epistasis 10y ago
    As electricity sources get cleaner, so will electric cars. Diesel and diesel-hybrid will stay the same. Solar, wind, and storage are getting so cheap that they will completely change the electricity generation profile over the next few decades. Even without that, a factor of 2 would be considered a revolution by pretty much any measure.
    - sandworm101 10y ago
      >> Diesel and diesel-hybrid will stay the same. Really? Development is done? I think there are plenty of engineers out there working on efficiency. Engines today are more efficient than they were a generation ago, and will be better in the future. In the realm of personal transport we can talk of going all-electric but for things like shipping, the heavy+distance things, there don't seem to be many non-IC options. Development therefore must not be abandoned.
      - Decade 10y ago
        Your car stays the same. Unless you're replacing your car all the time, you're not enjoying these higher efficiencies. Existing battery-electric vehicles become cleaner as their electricity supply becomes cleaner.
yessql 10y ago
* US electricity is about 1/3 goal, and constantly using less coal. * Emissions out of a tailpipe happen in cities and places with people. Power Plants tend to be more remote, so the toxic gasses are emitted away from most people. * Even if EV's were 100% coal powered, you would still be better off in CO2 emissions, because coal plants + EV is more efficient than digging up oil, refining it, transporting it to gas stations, and using in tiny, mobile, low use, low cost power plants.

by mbroshi 10y ago

dmoy 10y ago

1. Possibly, but typically not. A huge power plant is generally much more efficient and less emitting per watt than a tiny internal combustion engine. (Depends on the power plant...) 2. No idea sorry.

Retric 10y ago

1a.) Car engines are far less efficient and more polluting because they need to be portable, compact, and quickly operate over a wide power range. 1b.) Coal + Natural gas is generally less than 50% of electricity generation. 1c.) Oil takes a lot more effort to get to your car than coal does to a power plant combined with electricity transmission and storage. This indirect effect is huge. Net effect, gas cars create a lot more pollution per mile. 2) To some degree, however batteries can also be recycled.

ZeroGravitas 10y ago

EVs are still better taking both these issues (and some others that aren't immediately obvious) into account: http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-... Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave "Over their lifetime, battery electric vehicles produce far less global warming pollution than their gasoline counterparts—and they’re getting cleaner." "We found that battery electric cars generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for."

sandworm101 10y ago
According to the graph in the OP, battery-powered EVs have roughly 1/2 the lifecycle emissions. That's certainly lower and a good thing, but not a fundamental change given what needs to be done. I'd have to do the math, but it would seem that the switch from gas to electric is roughly as beneficial as the past switch from carburetors to fuel injection. It looks incremental rather than revolutionary. And I think there is much improvement to be made. These numbers are American cars, so I assume they aren't diesel and are for generally larger cars than in europe. Has a diesel-electric hybrid ever been sold in the US?
- epistasis 10y ago
  As electricity sources get cleaner, so will electric cars. Diesel and diesel-hybrid will stay the same. Solar, wind, and storage are getting so cheap that they will completely change the electricity generation profile over the next few decades. Even without that, a factor of 2 would be considered a revolution by pretty much any measure.
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    >> Diesel and diesel-hybrid will stay the same. Really? Development is done? I think there are plenty of engineers out there working on efficiency. Engines today are more efficient than they were a generation ago, and will be better in the future. In the realm of personal transport we can talk of going all-electric but for things like shipping, the heavy+distance things, there don't seem to be many non-IC options. Development therefore must not be abandoned.
    - Decade 10y ago
      Your car stays the same. Unless you're replacing your car all the time, you're not enjoying these higher efficiencies. Existing battery-electric vehicles become cleaner as their electricity supply becomes cleaner.

yessql 10y ago

* US electricity is about 1/3 goal, and constantly using less coal. * Emissions out of a tailpipe happen in cities and places with people. Power Plants tend to be more remote, so the toxic gasses are emitted away from most people. * Even if EV's were 100% coal powered, you would still be better off in CO2 emissions, because coal plants + EV is more efficient than digging up oil, refining it, transporting it to gas stations, and using in tiny, mobile, low use, low cost power plants.