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If the problem is instability in black communities I don't understand why your solution is to crack down very hard on unrest. While it might be an okay short te

by tdb7893 10y ago

If the problem is instability in black communities I don't understand why your solution is to crack down very hard on unrest. While it might be an okay short term solution I feel like this escalates the situation while not solving the underlying problem.

deepwave 10y ago
Violence needs to--has to--be met with equal or greater force to show the thugs who is boss--in this case the legally-appointed police and justice system. The answer is not a basic, universal income as some have suggested. No one deserves anything unless they earn it. I'm not talking about people who cannot work--the handicapped, retarded, etc. I'm talking about able-bodied people who refuse to even try. They sit around, collect a check, and think the world owes them something. The world owes no one anything. Get a job, even a menial one, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, do whatever it takes. Do it legally, honorably, constantly, and you will improve your lot in life. This administration has damaged America. It has convinced young people that the rich and wealthy owe the "rest of us" something. Not true. The rich and wealthy have what they have. It's theirs. Jealousy doesn't solve problems. It exacerbates them. No one is owed a college education payed for by the rich. I did it on MY OWN WITHOUT HELP EVEN FROM MY PARENTS. I'm not special, a genius, or even that gifted. I took responsibility for ME and MINE. I get what I earn. I deserve nothing else.
- tdb7893 10y ago
  I understand where you are coming from and I think the disagreements come from underlying philosophical differences and differences in experiences that I don't have time to debate before going to work. Thank you for exposing me to a different viewpoint and staying polite in the discussion.
- sanderjd 10y ago
  > Violence needs to--has to--be met with equal or greater force to show the thugs who is boss--in this case the legally-appointed police and justice system. This is a flawed and historically ignorant premise, presented with no justification.
  - deepwave 10y ago
    Flawed by whose standards? The left? If society is to have order, those who would violate that order in a way that uses violence, looting, mauling of others, blocking of roads used by emergency vehicles and commerce, and general disruption should be quelled quickly. People who would loot, etc. understand nothing but violence. We cannot and should not hand hold these "people". Get out of line, get smacked. Pure and simple.
    - sanderjd 10y ago
      No, what I mean is that when you say violence "needs to" and "has to" be met with equal or greater violence, you are just incorrect, from a historical standpoint. One of the great innovations of civilization was non-violent responses to violence, which usually prove to be more effective and lasting solutions. I think what you mean is that, in your opinion, violence should be met with equal or greater violence, for the reasons you've given. I don't agree with you, but you're entitled to that opinion. But it just isn't accurate to say that it needs to be handled in the way you think it should be.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Violence needs to--has to--be met with equal or greater force to show the thugs who is boss There may be some truth to that (or at least the weaker position that proportionate violence is necessary for this purpose), but even if this is necessary as a response, it is manifestly not sufficient as a preventive measure. Moreover, it is pretty much absolutely guaranteed to make the problem worse if the violence on the part of the "legitimate" authorities is not exquisitely carefully directed at the appropriate targets, because when violence that may be justified when used against "thugs" is misdirected at people (and those who such people care about) who are not already, but are at risk of being, alienated from the system, it often effects their alienation. [0] And this is how legitimacy of the authorities -- which is almost precisely the extent to which people are not alienated from the system -- breaks down. [0] In fact, this is also a problem with disproportionate violence of the type you recommend even when appropriately directed, which is one of the reasons that the argument that disproportionate violence for exemplary purposes is necessary (even if not sufficient) is dubious.

by tdb7893 10y ago

deepwave 10y ago

Violence needs to--has to--be met with equal or greater force to show the thugs who is boss--in this case the legally-appointed police and justice system. The answer is not a basic, universal income as some have suggested. No one deserves anything unless they earn it. I'm not talking about people who cannot work--the handicapped, retarded, etc. I'm talking about able-bodied people who refuse to even try. They sit around, collect a check, and think the world owes them something. The world owes no one anything. Get a job, even a menial one, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, do whatever it takes. Do it legally, honorably, constantly, and you will improve your lot in life. This administration has damaged America. It has convinced young people that the rich and wealthy owe the "rest of us" something. Not true. The rich and wealthy have what they have. It's theirs. Jealousy doesn't solve problems. It exacerbates them. No one is owed a college education payed for by the rich. I did it on MY OWN WITHOUT HELP EVEN FROM MY PARENTS. I'm not special, a genius, or even that gifted. I took responsibility for ME and MINE. I get what I earn. I deserve nothing else.

tdb7893 10y ago
I understand where you are coming from and I think the disagreements come from underlying philosophical differences and differences in experiences that I don't have time to debate before going to work. Thank you for exposing me to a different viewpoint and staying polite in the discussion.
sanderjd 10y ago
> Violence needs to--has to--be met with equal or greater force to show the thugs who is boss--in this case the legally-appointed police and justice system. This is a flawed and historically ignorant premise, presented with no justification.
- deepwave 10y ago
  Flawed by whose standards? The left? If society is to have order, those who would violate that order in a way that uses violence, looting, mauling of others, blocking of roads used by emergency vehicles and commerce, and general disruption should be quelled quickly. People who would loot, etc. understand nothing but violence. We cannot and should not hand hold these "people". Get out of line, get smacked. Pure and simple.
  - sanderjd 10y ago
    No, what I mean is that when you say violence "needs to" and "has to" be met with equal or greater violence, you are just incorrect, from a historical standpoint. One of the great innovations of civilization was non-violent responses to violence, which usually prove to be more effective and lasting solutions. I think what you mean is that, in your opinion, violence should be met with equal or greater violence, for the reasons you've given. I don't agree with you, but you're entitled to that opinion. But it just isn't accurate to say that it needs to be handled in the way you think it should be.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Violence needs to--has to--be met with equal or greater force to show the thugs who is boss There may be some truth to that (or at least the weaker position that proportionate violence is necessary for this purpose), but even if this is necessary as a response, it is manifestly not sufficient as a preventive measure. Moreover, it is pretty much absolutely guaranteed to make the problem worse if the violence on the part of the "legitimate" authorities is not exquisitely carefully directed at the appropriate targets, because when violence that may be justified when used against "thugs" is misdirected at people (and those who such people care about) who are not already, but are at risk of being, alienated from the system, it often effects their alienation. [0] And this is how legitimacy of the authorities -- which is almost precisely the extent to which people are not alienated from the system -- breaks down. [0] In fact, this is also a problem with disproportionate violence of the type you recommend even when appropriately directed, which is one of the reasons that the argument that disproportionate violence for exemplary purposes is necessary (even if not sufficient) is dubious.