5 ms·

Melbourne Launches World-Class Free Wi-Fi Network

30 points by bootload 10y ago

p4bl0 10y ago
I don't understand what "world-class" mean, is it just a buzzword or does it convey any information?
- mrmondo 10y ago
  It's like 'enterprise grade' but for citizens ;)
- ryan-allen 10y ago
  World class internet in Australia is a flaky 5 megabit per second.
  - lysp 10y ago
    Too true
mrmondo 10y ago
Melbournian here: I'd hold off labelling it world class just yet, Also worth noting is that the network is completely insecure - the entire network has no password on the WPA2 SSIDs at all so your traffic is unencrypted and ripe for the taking for anyone that wants it, it's not only bad practise - it's down right irresponsible and misleading. Couple that with the fact that the ISP backing most of it is notoriously shaftey - engaging in anticompetitive behaviour and been screwing over Australian citizens for decades, are one of the most expensive ISPs to peer with in the world and have a terrible support track record.
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  > I'd hold off labelling it world class just yet What does "world class" even mean in this context? 0.8 Mbps like Malawi [1]? 26.7 like South Korea? 5.6 Mbps, the global simple average [2]? [1] http://www.oafrica.com/broadband/household-internet-speeds/ http://www.oafrica.com/broadband/household-internet-speeds/ [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Internet_connection_speeds https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Interne...
  - hueving 10y ago
    >What does "world class" even mean in this context? It has access to the content on the "world" internet.
- yitchelle 10y ago
  Maybe ths is what world class means.... "The quality of the network is unparalleled in Australia and on par with world-class free public Wi-Fi networks in New York, London and San Francisco." - from the announcement.
- nrki 10y ago
  > Also worth noting is that the network is completely insecure - the entire network has no password on the WPA2 SSIDs FYI, even if it had a password, if everyone knows it, they have access to all your traffic anyway.
  - dx034 10y ago
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but WPA2 should have individual keys for each client, so that you cannot read the traffic of other connected users.
    - JimmyAustin 10y ago
      They do, but if you intercept the handshake that occurs every time someone joins the network, and you have the network key, they get that to.
      - awestroke 10y ago
        That doesn't sound right. Doesn't WPA2 include some form of Diffie-Hellman during the handshake? Doesn't prevent MITM, but should prevent snooping
        hueving 10y ago
        Nope: http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/5927/why-does-wpa-psk-not-use-diffie-hellman-key-exchange http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/5927/why-does-wpa-... If you're in PSK mode, it's assumed you're trusted. Perfect forward secrecy wasn't a target of PSK mode. Also, if you're going to do a DH exchange and give the key out to everyone, there is no point in having the key in the first place, just do a plain old DH exchange.
    - sasas 10y ago
      If you have the key and the pcap of the traffic, you can decrypt the traffic in Wireshark.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- bootload 10y ago
  "the network is completely insecure - the entire network has no password on the WPA2 SSIDs at all so your traffic is unencrypted and ripe for the taking for anyone that wants it, it's not only bad practise - it's down right irresponsible and misleading." Agree, pretty insecure. VPN ~ http://au.pcmag.com/networking/4558/feature/free-vpn-services-you-should-know-about http://au.pcmag.com/networking/4558/feature/free-vpn-service... What would be a better solution?
caminante 10y ago
... [for parts of Melbourne and with no timetable for a city-wide rollout.] Good press release :/.
- spacehunt 10y ago
  I guess the "future" locations on the map [1] will be turned on by the end of this year? Not exactly great, for example there's almost nothing planned along Swanston Street. [1] https://www.vic.gov.au/wifi/find.html https://www.vic.gov.au/wifi/find.html
jstoja 10y ago
Luxembourg city has this since almost 2years and it's pretty awesome. It's available in the whole city center, it's fast enough and there's even a premium offer. So many people are transiting here for business and offering a free wifi is a clear comfort offered to travellers! Big up to Melbourne for doing the same !
taneq 10y ago
I reckon it'll be less than a day before this network bogs down due to the sheer volume of Instagram photos of lattes.
draugadrotten 10y ago
Is this "free" Wi-fi used to track the physical location of wifi enabled phones, like many other public wifi networks? Will Australian police need warrants to query this network for location data? Can the NSA access the location data from this network through the 5 eyes network? "The model works by providing free access in exchange for users’ personal and behavioral data, which are then used to target ads to them." http://theconversation.com/the-heavy-price-we-pay-for-free-wi-fi-52412 http://theconversation.com/the-heavy-price-we-pay-for-free-w...
- bootload 10y ago
  "Will Australian police need warrants to query this network for location data?" would the data be held by the ISP and inspected under the existing legislation?
benbristow 10y ago
> World-Class > 250mb cap. Haha. Practically every free Wi-Fi network over here in the UK is unlimited.
- dagw 10y ago
  Perhaps, but at least in London free Wi-Fi is hardly ubiquitous. I found that walking down an avg. street in London I did not av access to free Wi-Fi. If they can blanket the city with this then that would be pretty handy even with a 250MB/day cap.
duncan_bayne 10y ago
Another Melbournian here - for the little it's worth I'm disappointed by the Government getting involved in something it oughtn't (from the perspective of a minarchist-Objectivist), and it's also an awful network from a technical perspective. I really wish the Government would just limit itself to, you know, Governing, and stop a) breaking markets and then b) appointing itself to "fix" the resultant problems with public money. Finally, calling it free is misleading - taxpayer funded would be much less like propaganda.
_ao789 10y ago
I stopped taking it seriously when they said "250mb cap". What the hell are you going to do with that?
- dagw 10y ago
  What are you doing with your phone? I have a 1.5 GB a month data plan and only very rarely go over that.
  - xuki 10y ago
    Some people use their phones as their main computer.
    - dagw 10y ago
      I'm guessing many of those people have a 'real' internet connection at home and at work which they'll be using most of the time.
      - spacehunt 10y ago
        4G LTE nowadays is often faster than the average non-NBN broadband at home or work though.
        hueving 10y ago
        non-NBN? I get 85mbps pretty consistently from my cable provider, which is faster than I get on LTE.
        spacehunt 10y ago
        How about upload? I only get 2.5Mbps uplink via Bigpond Cable.
  - hueving 10y ago
    Video call?
_ao789 10y ago
In London we have stations where there's over 150MB throughput on a device uncapped. Hardly 'on par'
zspitzer 10y ago
my god, stop complaining about a new free wi-fi network
exodust 10y ago
Mobile data plans are quite cheap in Australia lately. Lots of competition and lots of gigabytes thrown in. For this reason I don't know who the market is for free wi-fi when most people have enough mobile data anyway. I suppose tourists without roaming might use it, or anyone who has used all their data and too broke to pay the 2 bucks to top up.
hiisukun 10y ago
Adelaidian here (another Australian capital). Our city has had free Wifi provided by a competing ISP, since 2014 [1]. For many years now (as long as I can remember) they have also provide free Wifi at the Adelaide airport. I'm very happy to hear something similar has been launched in Melbourne. I visit there regularly and as most of my social arrangements are via data (messaging or email) it is always great to have access to Wifi. The trade-off between security and utility is one I'm comfortable with, as more layers of security can always be added. I'd be happy if the splash pages weren't quite so intrusive - but I guess either there isn't a good way around this, and/or it is the necessary price for something that is otherwise free. As an aside, the customer service of Melbourne's Wifi provider is indeed famously bad, while Adelaide's is famously good. Who knows what the future holds though. [1] https://hotspot.internode.on.net/partners/adelaidefree/ https://hotspot.internode.on.net/partners/adelaidefree/
- Benjamin_Dobell 10y ago
  You know TPG own Internode, right? ;) EDIT: To be fair, it's only recent.
fowl2 10y ago
They're hinting/implying that there'll be no captive portal - that makes it 1000% times more useful and friendly, even with just a small data cap. If only it extended to the airport - their stupid registration system is a PITA.

30 points by bootload 10y ago

p4bl0 10y ago

I don't understand what "world-class" mean, is it just a buzzword or does it convey any information?

mrmondo 10y ago
It's like 'enterprise grade' but for citizens ;)
ryan-allen 10y ago
World class internet in Australia is a flaky 5 megabit per second.
- lysp 10y ago
  Too true

mrmondo 10y ago

Melbournian here: I'd hold off labelling it world class just yet, Also worth noting is that the network is completely insecure - the entire network has no password on the WPA2 SSIDs at all so your traffic is unencrypted and ripe for the taking for anyone that wants it, it's not only bad practise - it's down right irresponsible and misleading. Couple that with the fact that the ISP backing most of it is notoriously shaftey - engaging in anticompetitive behaviour and been screwing over Australian citizens for decades, are one of the most expensive ISPs to peer with in the world and have a terrible support track record.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> I'd hold off labelling it world class just yet What does "world class" even mean in this context? 0.8 Mbps like Malawi [1]? 26.7 like South Korea? 5.6 Mbps, the global simple average [2]? [1] http://www.oafrica.com/broadband/household-internet-speeds/ http://www.oafrica.com/broadband/household-internet-speeds/ [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Internet_connection_speeds https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Interne...
- hueving 10y ago
  >What does "world class" even mean in this context? It has access to the content on the "world" internet.
yitchelle 10y ago
Maybe ths is what world class means.... "The quality of the network is unparalleled in Australia and on par with world-class free public Wi-Fi networks in New York, London and San Francisco." - from the announcement.
nrki 10y ago
> Also worth noting is that the network is completely insecure - the entire network has no password on the WPA2 SSIDs FYI, even if it had a password, if everyone knows it, they have access to all your traffic anyway.
- dx034 10y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but WPA2 should have individual keys for each client, so that you cannot read the traffic of other connected users.
  - JimmyAustin 10y ago
    They do, but if you intercept the handshake that occurs every time someone joins the network, and you have the network key, they get that to.
    - awestroke 10y ago
      That doesn't sound right. Doesn't WPA2 include some form of Diffie-Hellman during the handshake? Doesn't prevent MITM, but should prevent snooping
      - hueving 10y ago
        Nope: http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/5927/why-does-wpa-psk-not-use-diffie-hellman-key-exchange http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/5927/why-does-wpa-... If you're in PSK mode, it's assumed you're trusted. Perfect forward secrecy wasn't a target of PSK mode. Also, if you're going to do a DH exchange and give the key out to everyone, there is no point in having the key in the first place, just do a plain old DH exchange.
  - sasas 10y ago
    If you have the key and the pcap of the traffic, you can decrypt the traffic in Wireshark.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
bootload 10y ago
"the network is completely insecure - the entire network has no password on the WPA2 SSIDs at all so your traffic is unencrypted and ripe for the taking for anyone that wants it, it's not only bad practise - it's down right irresponsible and misleading." Agree, pretty insecure. VPN ~ http://au.pcmag.com/networking/4558/feature/free-vpn-services-you-should-know-about http://au.pcmag.com/networking/4558/feature/free-vpn-service... What would be a better solution?

caminante 10y ago

... [for parts of Melbourne and with no timetable for a city-wide rollout.] Good press release :/.

spacehunt 10y ago
I guess the "future" locations on the map [1] will be turned on by the end of this year? Not exactly great, for example there's almost nothing planned along Swanston Street. [1] https://www.vic.gov.au/wifi/find.html https://www.vic.gov.au/wifi/find.html

jstoja 10y ago

Luxembourg city has this since almost 2years and it's pretty awesome. It's available in the whole city center, it's fast enough and there's even a premium offer. So many people are transiting here for business and offering a free wifi is a clear comfort offered to travellers! Big up to Melbourne for doing the same !

taneq 10y ago

I reckon it'll be less than a day before this network bogs down due to the sheer volume of Instagram photos of lattes.

draugadrotten 10y ago

Is this "free" Wi-fi used to track the physical location of wifi enabled phones, like many other public wifi networks? Will Australian police need warrants to query this network for location data? Can the NSA access the location data from this network through the 5 eyes network? "The model works by providing free access in exchange for users’ personal and behavioral data, which are then used to target ads to them." http://theconversation.com/the-heavy-price-we-pay-for-free-wi-fi-52412 http://theconversation.com/the-heavy-price-we-pay-for-free-w...

bootload 10y ago
"Will Australian police need warrants to query this network for location data?" would the data be held by the ISP and inspected under the existing legislation?

benbristow 10y ago

> World-Class > 250mb cap. Haha. Practically every free Wi-Fi network over here in the UK is unlimited.

dagw 10y ago
Perhaps, but at least in London free Wi-Fi is hardly ubiquitous. I found that walking down an avg. street in London I did not av access to free Wi-Fi. If they can blanket the city with this then that would be pretty handy even with a 250MB/day cap.

duncan_bayne 10y ago

Another Melbournian here - for the little it's worth I'm disappointed by the Government getting involved in something it oughtn't (from the perspective of a minarchist-Objectivist), and it's also an awful network from a technical perspective. I really wish the Government would just limit itself to, you know, Governing, and stop a) breaking markets and then b) appointing itself to "fix" the resultant problems with public money. Finally, calling it free is misleading - taxpayer funded would be much less like propaganda.

_ao789 10y ago

I stopped taking it seriously when they said "250mb cap". What the hell are you going to do with that?

dagw 10y ago
What are you doing with your phone? I have a 1.5 GB a month data plan and only very rarely go over that.
- xuki 10y ago
  Some people use their phones as their main computer.
  - dagw 10y ago
    I'm guessing many of those people have a 'real' internet connection at home and at work which they'll be using most of the time.
    - spacehunt 10y ago
      4G LTE nowadays is often faster than the average non-NBN broadband at home or work though.
      - hueving 10y ago
        non-NBN? I get 85mbps pretty consistently from my cable provider, which is faster than I get on LTE.
        spacehunt 10y ago
        How about upload? I only get 2.5Mbps uplink via Bigpond Cable.
- hueving 10y ago
  Video call?

_ao789 10y ago

In London we have stations where there's over 150MB throughput on a device uncapped. Hardly 'on par'

zspitzer 10y ago

my god, stop complaining about a new free wi-fi network

exodust 10y ago

Mobile data plans are quite cheap in Australia lately. Lots of competition and lots of gigabytes thrown in. For this reason I don't know who the market is for free wi-fi when most people have enough mobile data anyway. I suppose tourists without roaming might use it, or anyone who has used all their data and too broke to pay the 2 bucks to top up.

hiisukun 10y ago

Adelaidian here (another Australian capital). Our city has had free Wifi provided by a competing ISP, since 2014 [1]. For many years now (as long as I can remember) they have also provide free Wifi at the Adelaide airport. I'm very happy to hear something similar has been launched in Melbourne. I visit there regularly and as most of my social arrangements are via data (messaging or email) it is always great to have access to Wifi. The trade-off between security and utility is one I'm comfortable with, as more layers of security can always be added. I'd be happy if the splash pages weren't quite so intrusive - but I guess either there isn't a good way around this, and/or it is the necessary price for something that is otherwise free. As an aside, the customer service of Melbourne's Wifi provider is indeed famously bad, while Adelaide's is famously good. Who knows what the future holds though. [1] https://hotspot.internode.on.net/partners/adelaidefree/ https://hotspot.internode.on.net/partners/adelaidefree/

Benjamin_Dobell 10y ago
You know TPG own Internode, right? ;) EDIT: To be fair, it's only recent.

fowl2 10y ago

They're hinting/implying that there'll be no captive portal - that makes it 1000% times more useful and friendly, even with just a small data cap. If only it extended to the airport - their stupid registration system is a PITA.