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I'm guessing coming via trade with China? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations#Roman_and_Byzantine_currency_discovered_in_China https://en.wikipe

I'm guessing coming via trade with China? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations#Roman_and_Byzantine_currency_discovered_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations#Roman_and...

Turing_Machine 10y ago
Right. No need for any direct connection between Rome and Japan. Coins were traded at their bullion value. I suspect the "baffled" part came from the journalist, not the actual archaeologists. Even today there are coins that are used that way, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler This coin has been minted and circulated continuously since 1741 in parts of the world far removed from its point of origin (indeed, the very government that originally minted it is long, long gone).
- mratzloff 10y ago
  Except they were copper coins, not silver coins.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    Japan is not famous for its natural resources of metal, especially prior to the 19th century, so maybe that makes sense too.
    - txutxu 10y ago
      Katanas did come to my mind when reading your comment, but I find this more contradictory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Japanese_iron-working_techniques https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Japanese_iron-working_te...
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        Well, that amazing technology was the result of only having iron sands to work with, "Tamahagane". Lots of impurities you have to work out, hence the hammering and folding as well.
  - jdmichal 10y ago
    Why does the metallic composition of the coins matter? It doesn't effect the point at all, so your use of "except" is confusing to me. Only point I can see is that copper is not a traditional bullion metal. I'd argue that that's up to the trade partners to decide, not us centuries and an industrial revolution later. For instance, aluminum was considered a precious metal until the late 1800's when new smelting processes drastically increased supply.
    - mratzloff 10y ago
      Yes, that's true; I had been thinking about it in terms of traditional bullion, which I suppose is a Western-centric viewpoint. Even China only recently ramped up their copper production with industrialization.
    - runeks 10y ago
      Copper is as traditional a bullion metal as either gold, silver or iron, it's just a matter of what historical period we're talking about. Commodity money evolved organically over thousands of years from salt, to iron/copper, to silver+gold and finally to gold alone. Gold was better suited as money because it was rarer, and therefore carried more value per weight unit, and it's fairly useless for metal work because it's relatively soft.
    - sandworm101 10y ago
      That holds for coins used as currency, but not necessarily for coins used for bullion. Krugerands, the definitive bullion coin, don't have denominations printed. Their value is based only on their metal. With ancient coins there is a very fine line between a valuable piece of currency, and an attractive lump of silver. I suspect that by the time this coin is in Japan, it is worth more than its weight suggests. But does that intrinsic value appear because it is currency or simply novelty? I think the latter. This is a bullion coin worth more purely by circumstance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krugerrand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krugerrand
      - digi_owl 10y ago
        My personal impression is that coinage is complicated. I suspect they started out as weights for measuring out a certain value of grain or similar. Then you stamp the weights with the mark of the sovereign that validates them. Then at some point it becomes just as easy to just swap weights around as bring out the scales.
  - kafkaesq 10y ago
    Which would explain why they weren't melted down. (They might have just been there in the mix, to make change for larger transactions among pieces no longer surviving).
- JBReefer 10y ago
  This is really cool, but I don't understand why they'd be more popular than local currency if they're not the dominant world currency like the dollar is. Still, what a fascinating chunk of currency.
  - Turing_Machine 10y ago
    I would guess that in every instance where these are popular that the local currency is fiat money issued by an unreliable government.
  - dcposch 10y ago
    > This is really cool, but I don't understand why they'd be more popular than local currency if they're not the dominant world currency like the dollar is. Looks like it's basically a widely used standard denomination for silver bullion. Silver holds its value much more reliably than third world fiat currencies.
- StanislavPetrov 10y ago
  Considering the recent(purported) discovery of Chinese skeletons in Roman settlements in England, I'd say the possibility of a direction connection is substantial. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/chinese-skeleton-discovery-roman-history-society-southwark-cemetery-asian-remains-a7330666.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/chines...

Turing_Machine 10y ago

Right. No need for any direct connection between Rome and Japan. Coins were traded at their bullion value. I suspect the "baffled" part came from the journalist, not the actual archaeologists. Even today there are coins that are used that way, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler This coin has been minted and circulated continuously since 1741 in parts of the world far removed from its point of origin (indeed, the very government that originally minted it is long, long gone).

mratzloff 10y ago
Except they were copper coins, not silver coins.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Japan is not famous for its natural resources of metal, especially prior to the 19th century, so maybe that makes sense too.
  - txutxu 10y ago
    Katanas did come to my mind when reading your comment, but I find this more contradictory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Japanese_iron-working_techniques https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Japanese_iron-working_te...
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      Well, that amazing technology was the result of only having iron sands to work with, "Tamahagane". Lots of impurities you have to work out, hence the hammering and folding as well.
- jdmichal 10y ago
  Why does the metallic composition of the coins matter? It doesn't effect the point at all, so your use of "except" is confusing to me. Only point I can see is that copper is not a traditional bullion metal. I'd argue that that's up to the trade partners to decide, not us centuries and an industrial revolution later. For instance, aluminum was considered a precious metal until the late 1800's when new smelting processes drastically increased supply.
  - mratzloff 10y ago
    Yes, that's true; I had been thinking about it in terms of traditional bullion, which I suppose is a Western-centric viewpoint. Even China only recently ramped up their copper production with industrialization.
  - runeks 10y ago
    Copper is as traditional a bullion metal as either gold, silver or iron, it's just a matter of what historical period we're talking about. Commodity money evolved organically over thousands of years from salt, to iron/copper, to silver+gold and finally to gold alone. Gold was better suited as money because it was rarer, and therefore carried more value per weight unit, and it's fairly useless for metal work because it's relatively soft.
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    That holds for coins used as currency, but not necessarily for coins used for bullion. Krugerands, the definitive bullion coin, don't have denominations printed. Their value is based only on their metal. With ancient coins there is a very fine line between a valuable piece of currency, and an attractive lump of silver. I suspect that by the time this coin is in Japan, it is worth more than its weight suggests. But does that intrinsic value appear because it is currency or simply novelty? I think the latter. This is a bullion coin worth more purely by circumstance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krugerrand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krugerrand
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      My personal impression is that coinage is complicated. I suspect they started out as weights for measuring out a certain value of grain or similar. Then you stamp the weights with the mark of the sovereign that validates them. Then at some point it becomes just as easy to just swap weights around as bring out the scales.
- kafkaesq 10y ago
  Which would explain why they weren't melted down. (They might have just been there in the mix, to make change for larger transactions among pieces no longer surviving).
JBReefer 10y ago
This is really cool, but I don't understand why they'd be more popular than local currency if they're not the dominant world currency like the dollar is. Still, what a fascinating chunk of currency.
- Turing_Machine 10y ago
  I would guess that in every instance where these are popular that the local currency is fiat money issued by an unreliable government.
- dcposch 10y ago
  > This is really cool, but I don't understand why they'd be more popular than local currency if they're not the dominant world currency like the dollar is. Looks like it's basically a widely used standard denomination for silver bullion. Silver holds its value much more reliably than third world fiat currencies.
StanislavPetrov 10y ago
Considering the recent(purported) discovery of Chinese skeletons in Roman settlements in England, I'd say the possibility of a direction connection is substantial. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/chinese-skeleton-discovery-roman-history-society-southwark-cemetery-asian-remains-a7330666.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/chines...