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The main problem I have with ketogenic diets is that it's actually quite difficult and sometimes expensive to eat a 90-95% fat diet. I tried it for a while, and

The main problem I have with ketogenic diets is that it's actually quite difficult and sometimes expensive to eat a 90-95% fat diet. I tried it for a while, and since I couldn't have carbs OR too much protein, I had several instances where my dinner in a pinch was melted down cheese and half-n-half. Your diet basically becomes cheese and avocados with some, but not too much, salmon or chicken. I'm not arguing that it doesn't work for a good subset of people, but it's not the kind of diet that's easy to keep up over time or is all that economically feasible for some. Keto diets are actually more restrictive than vegan or kosher or halal, and it's not a surprise that they're mostly prescribed for epilepsy - it definitely feels like a "sick person diet". I also wonder if it's possible to work out while doing keto. Since muscles use glycogen to work, and the keto diet is intentionally low in glycogen, does that make weight training and cardio harder? Especially the former, since you're limited in how much protein you can eat, and strength training benefits from having ~150g of protein per day.

davio 10y ago
You should listen to the Tim Ferris podcast with Dominic D’Agostino. It's pretty fascinating what Dominic does with keto diet as a researcher.
- ethanbond 10y ago
  Could you provide a synopsis or a bit more info regarding the relevance to the topic at least?
  - rpazyaquian 10y ago
    I would like more info or a small review as well, too. Mostly cause I'm at work and I'll forget by the time I get home...
  - davio 10y ago
    Dominic is a PhD researcher in this area. He has a lot of DOD type work where the Navy Seals want "Ketogenic Diet in a Pill" because subjects under ketosis are more resistant to oxygen toxicity when diving at depth. http://www.onr.navy.mil/Media-Center/Press-Releases/2015/Oxygen-Toxicity-Navy-Divers.aspx http://www.onr.navy.mil/Media-Center/Press-Releases/2015/Oxy... Dominic is also a super-strong guy and deadlifts like 600+ pounds while in ketosis. It's a fascinating 2 hour podcast. I don't think you'll be able to listen to it without wanting to be in ketosis.
rpazyaquian 10y ago
I'll also admit that a big reason I had middling success on keto was that I had no idea how to cook for myself without relying on a source of carbs. Learning how to cook fat-heavy, low/no-carb meals is something that I've never learned, and I'm stumped. I'd be interested in resources on cooking for keto!
- briHass 10y ago
  If you're looking for a cookbook, this one is good for some ideas: https://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Cookbook-Nutritious-Low-Carb-High-Fat/dp/1628600780/ https://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Cookbook-Nutritious-Low-Car... Personally, I'm not a huge by-the-book cooker. For my keto/very-low-carb diet, I just focus on certain foods that are in line with the target macros. That means lots of: - 80/20 hamburger meat - Fatty steak cuts (e.g. ribeye) - Fatty fish (e.g. salmon) - Fatty chicken cuts (e.g. legs/thigh/dark meat) - Most pork (except lean cuts like loin) e.g. pulled pork, bacon, belly - Avocados - Macadamia nuts - Eggs (particularly yokes) - All coconut products (e.g. oil, milk, unsweetened flakes) - Green, leafy veggies that are low in carbs (e.g. kale) - Green veggies that are high in fiber relative to carbs (e.g. Brussels sprouts, broccoli) Spices are all good, so a lot of my meals turn out like meaty stir fry-type dishes without the starch and with a focus on adding fats (e.g. coconut oil, olive oil) if needed.
- tcarey83 10y ago
  This site has quite a few good recipes: http://www.genaw.com/lowcarb/ http://www.genaw.com/lowcarb/ However, you don't have to be fancy. I usually just eat meat and low carb veggies for dinner. For instance, baking a bone-in chicken breast and heating up frozen veggies (lots of great mixes available) or doing a stir fry with chicken or beef and low carb veggies again (don't use packaged stir fry sauce, however since they are mostly sugar).
ni-hil 10y ago
There is different types of keto diets, and the ones recommended for "non-sick" people, does not asks you to restrict your protein intake. You should still consume around ~1g of protein per lb of lean mass, probably even more if you are an intense bodybuilder. Only carbs are restricted (often <25g/day), and then fat become inevitably your de facto energy intake. I also recommend the `Tim Ferriss - Dom D’Agostino on Fasting, Ketosis, and the End of Cancer` podcast, and as you will see, being a bodybuilder on keto does not seems to be an issue. Not for him also. There is another podcast with him `Dom D’Agostino — The Power of the Ketogenic Diet` but I haven't got the chance to listen to it yet.
- rpazyaquian 10y ago
  I'll have to knuckle down and listen to those podcasts, then. As for the protein limitation, the calculator in the other comments have upper limits. I keep getting conflicting information on this point.
Nav_Panel 10y ago
> The main problem I have with ketogenic diets is that it's actually quite difficult and sometimes expensive to eat a 90-95% fat diet From what I've seen, your diet should be ~60-70% fat, 5% or less carbs, and ~25-35% protein. Definitely not 95% fat. > I had several instances where my dinner in a pinch was melted down cheese and half-n-half. Your diet basically becomes cheese and avocados with some, but not too much, salmon or chicken What about vegetables? I ate a lot of salads when I did keto. I also ate a lot of fattier meats, such as cured italian meats and ground beef. No reason to eat super lean protein when fat is most of your calories; buy the cheap fatty stuff and enjoy it. Also, eggs? I was having an omelette every morning. > I also wonder if it's possible to work out while doing keto It's very possible: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22835211 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22835211 but I doubt it would be if you're not eating any protein...
- rpazyaquian 10y ago
  I prolly fucked the diet up, then. It certainly _felt_ like I was eating almost all fat...good to know that I can take advantage of cheap fatty meats like short ribs, oxtail, and marrow then. As for vegetables, I missed carrots and peas too much. Mustard greens and broccoli are apparently okay, though. I could always just make salads out of baby spinach and arugula, but I suck at making salad dressings.
  - Nav_Panel 10y ago
    > As for vegetables, I missed carrots and peas too much. Mustard greens and broccoli are apparently okay, though. I could always just make salads out of baby spinach and arugula, but I suck at making salad dressings. The rule for veggies is to avoid starch and stick to dark leafy greens. My go-to easy dish would be a "taco salad", where I'd cook some ground beef and serve it with cheese, salsa, sour cream over lettuce. There's also lots of dishes possible with kale and spinach. > take advantage of cheap fatty meats Fish included! No reason to worry about eating "too much" salmon. Cook it with butter sauce and it should fit your macro-nutrient ratios perfectly. > I prolly fucked the diet up As another comment said, it's no wonder you felt sick. Also, the "keto flu" is a known phenomenon while your body adapts and flushes all the water out of your system. Drink a lot of electrolytes (chicken broth is a good source) and you'll feel better.
azdle 10y ago
Not sure where you got the 90-95% fat, but I've never seen anyone suggest that you should be eating anywhere near that much from fat. If you were actually trying to get that high I can understand why you'd feel like it's a "sick person diet". From what I've seen, the traditional advice for 'macros' is that you should be eating 65/30/5 for fat/protein/carbs. However people often misinterpret that to mean that that's a goal for each and if they haven't eaten that much they should force themselves to eat that. If you're serious about your diet, you should really take 5 minutes and figure out exactly what your body need. Each person is going to be a bit different, but in general (but slightly more specific than the last 'in general') you should be eating less than 20-50g of 'net' carbs, you should eat at least 1-2g/kg of lean body mass, and you should eat as much fat as it takes you to not be hungry. There are calculators that will walk you through all this, http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/ http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/ is one that I've used before, it's more targeted at weight loss, but it's only one that I've found that makes an effort to cite the calculations it does. As for working out, yes it's definitely possible. I've been lifting since December and making great progress. There are also occasionally stories of endurance athletes that swear by a ketogenic diet. My understanding of why it can be beneficial is that it basically removes your dependence on glycogen, when runners 'hit the wall' it's their body running out of glycogen their body then has to transition to running on fat. Keto-adapted runners are just running on fat from the beginning so they don't hit the wall and are more used to burning fat for energy. I'm not a runner so I don't have personal experience in any of that, but in my lifting I do find that I have to take it a bit slower than I expect others have to. When you're keto you lose a bit of the 'bursty' power that people with glycogen reserves have. I don't claim to be an expert on any of this, but I do continue with it. I've been mostly ketogenic since May of 2013, and I've had many improvements in things like mood, hair, skin, and sleep and I definitely notice a change in those things when I decide that the social aspects of eating are more important than my diet.
- rpazyaquian 10y ago
  I could have sworn that there was an upper limit on the amount of protein you can eat on keto. Something like, more than ~150g would mean that the protein starts getting used for energy instead of fat, which ruins the keto. Maybe that was misinformation. Does that mean that I can eat mostly stuff like steak, chicken, and eggs, then? If it's really more of an upper limit on carbs ~20-50g, a minimum of protein, and the rest is fat, then I guess that's fine. When I tried it, I was very strict on the carbs such that I couldn't go over 20g. In fact, that calculator says I shouldn't be eating above 25g, and also says this: > It is important to get enough protein to maintain your muscles, but not too much or it will kick you out of ketosis. Which confuses me. I've since moved away from keto to a mostly-protein diet with some carbs here and there via veg and bread, and it's worked alright with lifting. Does that mean that keto diets are different for weightlifters than for non-weightlifters?
rhinoceraptor 10y ago
Over 70% fat is where you want to be if you are using it for epilepsy. There's no reason a healthy person should go that high.

davio 10y ago

You should listen to the Tim Ferris podcast with Dominic D’Agostino. It's pretty fascinating what Dominic does with keto diet as a researcher.

ethanbond 10y ago
Could you provide a synopsis or a bit more info regarding the relevance to the topic at least?
- rpazyaquian 10y ago
  I would like more info or a small review as well, too. Mostly cause I'm at work and I'll forget by the time I get home...
- davio 10y ago
  Dominic is a PhD researcher in this area. He has a lot of DOD type work where the Navy Seals want "Ketogenic Diet in a Pill" because subjects under ketosis are more resistant to oxygen toxicity when diving at depth. http://www.onr.navy.mil/Media-Center/Press-Releases/2015/Oxygen-Toxicity-Navy-Divers.aspx http://www.onr.navy.mil/Media-Center/Press-Releases/2015/Oxy... Dominic is also a super-strong guy and deadlifts like 600+ pounds while in ketosis. It's a fascinating 2 hour podcast. I don't think you'll be able to listen to it without wanting to be in ketosis.

rpazyaquian 10y ago

I'll also admit that a big reason I had middling success on keto was that I had no idea how to cook for myself without relying on a source of carbs. Learning how to cook fat-heavy, low/no-carb meals is something that I've never learned, and I'm stumped. I'd be interested in resources on cooking for keto!

briHass 10y ago
If you're looking for a cookbook, this one is good for some ideas: https://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Cookbook-Nutritious-Low-Carb-High-Fat/dp/1628600780/ https://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Cookbook-Nutritious-Low-Car... Personally, I'm not a huge by-the-book cooker. For my keto/very-low-carb diet, I just focus on certain foods that are in line with the target macros. That means lots of: - 80/20 hamburger meat - Fatty steak cuts (e.g. ribeye) - Fatty fish (e.g. salmon) - Fatty chicken cuts (e.g. legs/thigh/dark meat) - Most pork (except lean cuts like loin) e.g. pulled pork, bacon, belly - Avocados - Macadamia nuts - Eggs (particularly yokes) - All coconut products (e.g. oil, milk, unsweetened flakes) - Green, leafy veggies that are low in carbs (e.g. kale) - Green veggies that are high in fiber relative to carbs (e.g. Brussels sprouts, broccoli) Spices are all good, so a lot of my meals turn out like meaty stir fry-type dishes without the starch and with a focus on adding fats (e.g. coconut oil, olive oil) if needed.
tcarey83 10y ago
This site has quite a few good recipes: http://www.genaw.com/lowcarb/ http://www.genaw.com/lowcarb/ However, you don't have to be fancy. I usually just eat meat and low carb veggies for dinner. For instance, baking a bone-in chicken breast and heating up frozen veggies (lots of great mixes available) or doing a stir fry with chicken or beef and low carb veggies again (don't use packaged stir fry sauce, however since they are mostly sugar).

ni-hil 10y ago

There is different types of keto diets, and the ones recommended for "non-sick" people, does not asks you to restrict your protein intake. You should still consume around ~1g of protein per lb of lean mass, probably even more if you are an intense bodybuilder. Only carbs are restricted (often <25g/day), and then fat become inevitably your de facto energy intake. I also recommend the `Tim Ferriss - Dom D’Agostino on Fasting, Ketosis, and the End of Cancer` podcast, and as you will see, being a bodybuilder on keto does not seems to be an issue. Not for him also. There is another podcast with him `Dom D’Agostino — The Power of the Ketogenic Diet` but I haven't got the chance to listen to it yet.

rpazyaquian 10y ago
I'll have to knuckle down and listen to those podcasts, then. As for the protein limitation, the calculator in the other comments have upper limits. I keep getting conflicting information on this point.

Nav_Panel 10y ago

> The main problem I have with ketogenic diets is that it's actually quite difficult and sometimes expensive to eat a 90-95% fat diet From what I've seen, your diet should be ~60-70% fat, 5% or less carbs, and ~25-35% protein. Definitely not 95% fat. > I had several instances where my dinner in a pinch was melted down cheese and half-n-half. Your diet basically becomes cheese and avocados with some, but not too much, salmon or chicken What about vegetables? I ate a lot of salads when I did keto. I also ate a lot of fattier meats, such as cured italian meats and ground beef. No reason to eat super lean protein when fat is most of your calories; buy the cheap fatty stuff and enjoy it. Also, eggs? I was having an omelette every morning. > I also wonder if it's possible to work out while doing keto It's very possible: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22835211 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22835211 but I doubt it would be if you're not eating any protein...

rpazyaquian 10y ago
I prolly fucked the diet up, then. It certainly _felt_ like I was eating almost all fat...good to know that I can take advantage of cheap fatty meats like short ribs, oxtail, and marrow then. As for vegetables, I missed carrots and peas too much. Mustard greens and broccoli are apparently okay, though. I could always just make salads out of baby spinach and arugula, but I suck at making salad dressings.
- Nav_Panel 10y ago
  > As for vegetables, I missed carrots and peas too much. Mustard greens and broccoli are apparently okay, though. I could always just make salads out of baby spinach and arugula, but I suck at making salad dressings. The rule for veggies is to avoid starch and stick to dark leafy greens. My go-to easy dish would be a "taco salad", where I'd cook some ground beef and serve it with cheese, salsa, sour cream over lettuce. There's also lots of dishes possible with kale and spinach. > take advantage of cheap fatty meats Fish included! No reason to worry about eating "too much" salmon. Cook it with butter sauce and it should fit your macro-nutrient ratios perfectly. > I prolly fucked the diet up As another comment said, it's no wonder you felt sick. Also, the "keto flu" is a known phenomenon while your body adapts and flushes all the water out of your system. Drink a lot of electrolytes (chicken broth is a good source) and you'll feel better.

azdle 10y ago

Not sure where you got the 90-95% fat, but I've never seen anyone suggest that you should be eating anywhere near that much from fat. If you were actually trying to get that high I can understand why you'd feel like it's a "sick person diet". From what I've seen, the traditional advice for 'macros' is that you should be eating 65/30/5 for fat/protein/carbs. However people often misinterpret that to mean that that's a goal for each and if they haven't eaten that much they should force themselves to eat that. If you're serious about your diet, you should really take 5 minutes and figure out exactly what your body need. Each person is going to be a bit different, but in general (but slightly more specific than the last 'in general') you should be eating less than 20-50g of 'net' carbs, you should eat at least 1-2g/kg of lean body mass, and you should eat as much fat as it takes you to not be hungry. There are calculators that will walk you through all this, http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/ http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/ is one that I've used before, it's more targeted at weight loss, but it's only one that I've found that makes an effort to cite the calculations it does. As for working out, yes it's definitely possible. I've been lifting since December and making great progress. There are also occasionally stories of endurance athletes that swear by a ketogenic diet. My understanding of why it can be beneficial is that it basically removes your dependence on glycogen, when runners 'hit the wall' it's their body running out of glycogen their body then has to transition to running on fat. Keto-adapted runners are just running on fat from the beginning so they don't hit the wall and are more used to burning fat for energy. I'm not a runner so I don't have personal experience in any of that, but in my lifting I do find that I have to take it a bit slower than I expect others have to. When you're keto you lose a bit of the 'bursty' power that people with glycogen reserves have. I don't claim to be an expert on any of this, but I do continue with it. I've been mostly ketogenic since May of 2013, and I've had many improvements in things like mood, hair, skin, and sleep and I definitely notice a change in those things when I decide that the social aspects of eating are more important than my diet.

rpazyaquian 10y ago
I could have sworn that there was an upper limit on the amount of protein you can eat on keto. Something like, more than ~150g would mean that the protein starts getting used for energy instead of fat, which ruins the keto. Maybe that was misinformation. Does that mean that I can eat mostly stuff like steak, chicken, and eggs, then? If it's really more of an upper limit on carbs ~20-50g, a minimum of protein, and the rest is fat, then I guess that's fine. When I tried it, I was very strict on the carbs such that I couldn't go over 20g. In fact, that calculator says I shouldn't be eating above 25g, and also says this: > It is important to get enough protein to maintain your muscles, but not too much or it will kick you out of ketosis. Which confuses me. I've since moved away from keto to a mostly-protein diet with some carbs here and there via veg and bread, and it's worked alright with lifting. Does that mean that keto diets are different for weightlifters than for non-weightlifters?

rhinoceraptor 10y ago

Over 70% fat is where you want to be if you are using it for epilepsy. There's no reason a healthy person should go that high.