5 ms·

Why not more female sanitation workers or more male elementary school teachers? What makes the gender demographics of building websites so much more important

Why not more female sanitation workers or more male elementary school teachers? What makes the gender demographics of building websites so much more important than all these other imbalanced fields?

MollyR 10y ago
There has been movements for more female sanitation workers, as for male elementary school teachers and nurses, haven't heard of that. The gender demographics of tech is important due to the perceived wealth and power of Silicon Valley. I personally say perceived because I thinks its the VC's who have the real wealth and power.
- DanBC 10y ago
  A mix of articles about men in nursing and men in teaching: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7088418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7088418
  - MollyR 10y ago
    Thanks. Half of those aren't about pushing men into nursing or teaching, not many are in valued news oulets( abc go). Its mostly blog posts, others are about the difficulties being a male nurse or teacher. I also just googled "men in nursing" and "men in teaching" as quick sanity check. Its pretty clear there is nowhere the same level of push we have going for women in tech and nowhere near the same social validation for pushing men into those fields.
patrickg_zill 10y ago
Or commercial fisherman, mining machine operator, etc. The money is in tech at this moment. And women want it.
r_smart 10y ago
While I kind of agree with the thrust of your comment overall, I think it makes sense in the case of Melinda Gates. Look how fabulously wealthy her family has become as a result of tech. You can see why, if she thinks women are at an unjust disadvantage, she would want to try and fix that through getting women into tech.
M_Grey 10y ago
Or coal miners! /s Seriously, the answer is the same as why half of the planet wants to be in tech, money, success, and influence. The general thinking is and has been that you try to fairly populate the mid-top range of jobs, and that's more effective than trying to shoehorn in more women driving dumpsters.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > Or coal miners This is said every single time this comes up. People need to learn how to use a fucking search engine. http://www.womeninmining.org/ http://www.womeninmining.org/ http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/135815/API_Study_Getting_More_Women_into_Oil_Gas_Careers/ http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/135815/API_Study_Getti...
- forgottenpass 10y ago
  the answer is the same as why half of the planet wants to be in tech Because they're nerds? [...]money, success, and influence. Oh. Well, I'm sure they'll stay in the field when the find themselves crammed into an open office, working on yet another webapp, with little to no control over product direction. And a wage trajectory of a field that is leveraging it's current cultural cachet to drive a huge recruitment effort. Once the jig is up, and exposed as just a way to drive down wages, we'll be back to being seen as the hate-worthy nerdy fuckers in the basement. And society will go back to encouraging girls away from the field.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    I think you're overestimating the relative glamour of waste disposal.
- xenihn 10y ago
  >the answer is the same as why half of the planet wants to be in tech, money, success, and influence. If those are your primary concerns, odds are you'd be more interested in finance or politics.
  - 10y ago
DanBC 10y ago
Programmes to get more women into sanitation work, or men into teaching, already exist and have already been posted to HN. Learn to search.
- mzw_mzw 10y ago
  And do they get even one one-hundredth of the publicity that the tech programs do? And is anyone who even dares to quibble with their methodology or approach subjected to media hate campaigns, as with the tech programs?
dmoo 10y ago
She seems pretty clear about it "I care about computer science. When I was in school in the 1980s, women got about 37 percent of computer science degrees and law degrees then. Law went up to 47 percent now. In medicine, we were at 28 percent in 1984. That’s gone up to 48 percent. Computer science went from 37 percent to 18 percent. I started to learn about it and say, my gosh. To me, the tech industry is one of the best places to work right now."
- Retric 10y ago
  Some tech jobs are very flexible, but many of them are completely toxic and expect crazy hours. If anything I find women tend to make more rational career choices, which makes programming far less appealing than you might think. PS: I have also been outnumbered by female developers on a team before. But, never at 'toxic' work environments.
throwaway2016a 10y ago
> What makes the gender demographics of building websites so much more important than all these other imbalanced fields? I don't see anything in the article about building websites. There is a lot more to Computer Science than building websites even if websites and mobile app are the chosen UI for a great many enterprise and B2C projects now. Edit: What about women data scientists? Women firmware engineers? Women AI developers? Women database administrators? It's interesting that the mind would immediately associate woman with the more creative CS subsets vs one of the more math heavy ones.
kukac 10y ago
I totally agree with you. No one really seems to be able to explain this.
- CJefferson 10y ago
  There are many programme to try to increase male elementary school teachers, you just don't hang around on elementary school related forums.
  - kukac 10y ago
    Okay, that's actually great to know, but I am yet to see feminists fighting to get more females into other male-dominated jobs that are not as well-paid as software engineering.
    - Tan__ 10y ago
      Have you tried looking? There are plenty of programs encouraging women to go into non-traditional jobs.
      - mzw_mzw 10y ago
        Such as? What are these programs encouraging women to become garbage collectors or construction workers or miners, and on the same scale as the endlessly hyped women-in-tech initiatives?
        Tan__ 10y ago
        http://www.womenintoconstruction.org/whoweare http://www.womenintoconstruction.org/whoweare http://www.hays.co.uk/job/construction-property-jobs/insights/women-in-construction/ http://www.hays.co.uk/job/construction-property-jobs/insight... https://www.dol.gov/wb/factsheets/nontra2008.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/factsheets/nontra2008.htm http://www.new-nyc.org/ http://www.new-nyc.org/ http://www.learnhowtobecome.org/underrepresented-careers-for-women/ http://www.learnhowtobecome.org/underrepresented-careers-for...
Futurebot 10y ago
Technology is ones of the places where money, status, power, and influence is (like finance, etc.) Diversification of the elite requires elite professions; sanitation worker, school teacher, and coal miner are not elite professions. It's true that this doesn't always get stated, but it is the most likely reason.
atombath 10y ago
Engineers are respected for their ingenuity, intelligence, real-world problem-solving, studious determination, maybe even grit. These skills are on the opposite spectrum from vanity skills(presentation, socializing, marketing), which unfortunately are at the core of gendered expectations for girls. Since engineering skills actually reflect a depth of the holder(especially in our vanity driven world), they implicitly demand more respect. Really, more professional females in engineering is the only way forward for current gender issues. I would argue it's the same battle that must be fought to combat racism as well.
slededit 10y ago
Probably because Melinda herself worked in tech (how do you think she met Bill?) and therefore has more of a connection to this industry then to sanitation workers.
matthewowen 10y ago
I think a lot of people do care deeply about getting more men into elementary school teaching. But as for why tech: technology is increasingly a sector where people earn high wages: people care about some getting some share of that. More importantly, tech companies are becoming the center of our lives: they produce the products we spend our time with. Moreover, tech companies today are increasingly oriented around and dominated by technical employees, rather than "business" or marketing staff. If women aren't represented amongst these technical employees and founders, that will have a detrimental effect on society, because these products will be less likely to reflect the needs of women. Case in point: the ongoing failure of Twitter to properly ha for abusive behaviour and harassment, which overwhelmingly affects women.

Why not more female sanitation workers or more male elementary school teachers? What makes the gender demographics of building websites so much more important than all these other imbalanced fields?

MollyR 10y ago

There has been movements for more female sanitation workers, as for male elementary school teachers and nurses, haven't heard of that. The gender demographics of tech is important due to the perceived wealth and power of Silicon Valley. I personally say perceived because I thinks its the VC's who have the real wealth and power.

DanBC 10y ago
A mix of articles about men in nursing and men in teaching: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7088418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7088418
- MollyR 10y ago
  Thanks. Half of those aren't about pushing men into nursing or teaching, not many are in valued news oulets( abc go). Its mostly blog posts, others are about the difficulties being a male nurse or teacher. I also just googled "men in nursing" and "men in teaching" as quick sanity check. Its pretty clear there is nowhere the same level of push we have going for women in tech and nowhere near the same social validation for pushing men into those fields.

patrickg_zill 10y ago

Or commercial fisherman, mining machine operator, etc. The money is in tech at this moment. And women want it.

r_smart 10y ago

While I kind of agree with the thrust of your comment overall, I think it makes sense in the case of Melinda Gates. Look how fabulously wealthy her family has become as a result of tech. You can see why, if she thinks women are at an unjust disadvantage, she would want to try and fix that through getting women into tech.

M_Grey 10y ago

Or coal miners! /s Seriously, the answer is the same as why half of the planet wants to be in tech, money, success, and influence. The general thinking is and has been that you try to fairly populate the mid-top range of jobs, and that's more effective than trying to shoehorn in more women driving dumpsters.

DanBC 10y ago
> Or coal miners This is said every single time this comes up. People need to learn how to use a fucking search engine. http://www.womeninmining.org/ http://www.womeninmining.org/ http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/135815/API_Study_Getting_More_Women_into_Oil_Gas_Careers/ http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/135815/API_Study_Getti...
forgottenpass 10y ago
the answer is the same as why half of the planet wants to be in tech Because they're nerds? [...]money, success, and influence. Oh. Well, I'm sure they'll stay in the field when the find themselves crammed into an open office, working on yet another webapp, with little to no control over product direction. And a wage trajectory of a field that is leveraging it's current cultural cachet to drive a huge recruitment effort. Once the jig is up, and exposed as just a way to drive down wages, we'll be back to being seen as the hate-worthy nerdy fuckers in the basement. And society will go back to encouraging girls away from the field.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  I think you're overestimating the relative glamour of waste disposal.
xenihn 10y ago
>the answer is the same as why half of the planet wants to be in tech, money, success, and influence. If those are your primary concerns, odds are you'd be more interested in finance or politics.
- 10y ago

DanBC 10y ago

Programmes to get more women into sanitation work, or men into teaching, already exist and have already been posted to HN. Learn to search.

mzw_mzw 10y ago
And do they get even one one-hundredth of the publicity that the tech programs do? And is anyone who even dares to quibble with their methodology or approach subjected to media hate campaigns, as with the tech programs?

dmoo 10y ago

She seems pretty clear about it "I care about computer science. When I was in school in the 1980s, women got about 37 percent of computer science degrees and law degrees then. Law went up to 47 percent now. In medicine, we were at 28 percent in 1984. That’s gone up to 48 percent. Computer science went from 37 percent to 18 percent. I started to learn about it and say, my gosh. To me, the tech industry is one of the best places to work right now."

Retric 10y ago
Some tech jobs are very flexible, but many of them are completely toxic and expect crazy hours. If anything I find women tend to make more rational career choices, which makes programming far less appealing than you might think. PS: I have also been outnumbered by female developers on a team before. But, never at 'toxic' work environments.

throwaway2016a 10y ago

> What makes the gender demographics of building websites so much more important than all these other imbalanced fields? I don't see anything in the article about building websites. There is a lot more to Computer Science than building websites even if websites and mobile app are the chosen UI for a great many enterprise and B2C projects now. Edit: What about women data scientists? Women firmware engineers? Women AI developers? Women database administrators? It's interesting that the mind would immediately associate woman with the more creative CS subsets vs one of the more math heavy ones.

kukac 10y ago

I totally agree with you. No one really seems to be able to explain this.

CJefferson 10y ago
There are many programme to try to increase male elementary school teachers, you just don't hang around on elementary school related forums.
- kukac 10y ago
  Okay, that's actually great to know, but I am yet to see feminists fighting to get more females into other male-dominated jobs that are not as well-paid as software engineering.
  - Tan__ 10y ago
    Have you tried looking? There are plenty of programs encouraging women to go into non-traditional jobs.
    - mzw_mzw 10y ago
      Such as? What are these programs encouraging women to become garbage collectors or construction workers or miners, and on the same scale as the endlessly hyped women-in-tech initiatives?
      - Tan__ 10y ago
        http://www.womenintoconstruction.org/whoweare http://www.womenintoconstruction.org/whoweare http://www.hays.co.uk/job/construction-property-jobs/insights/women-in-construction/ http://www.hays.co.uk/job/construction-property-jobs/insight... https://www.dol.gov/wb/factsheets/nontra2008.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/factsheets/nontra2008.htm http://www.new-nyc.org/ http://www.new-nyc.org/ http://www.learnhowtobecome.org/underrepresented-careers-for-women/ http://www.learnhowtobecome.org/underrepresented-careers-for...

Futurebot 10y ago

Technology is ones of the places where money, status, power, and influence is (like finance, etc.) Diversification of the elite requires elite professions; sanitation worker, school teacher, and coal miner are not elite professions. It's true that this doesn't always get stated, but it is the most likely reason.

atombath 10y ago

Engineers are respected for their ingenuity, intelligence, real-world problem-solving, studious determination, maybe even grit. These skills are on the opposite spectrum from vanity skills(presentation, socializing, marketing), which unfortunately are at the core of gendered expectations for girls. Since engineering skills actually reflect a depth of the holder(especially in our vanity driven world), they implicitly demand more respect. Really, more professional females in engineering is the only way forward for current gender issues. I would argue it's the same battle that must be fought to combat racism as well.

slededit 10y ago

Probably because Melinda herself worked in tech (how do you think she met Bill?) and therefore has more of a connection to this industry then to sanitation workers.

matthewowen 10y ago

I think a lot of people do care deeply about getting more men into elementary school teaching. But as for why tech: technology is increasingly a sector where people earn high wages: people care about some getting some share of that. More importantly, tech companies are becoming the center of our lives: they produce the products we spend our time with. Moreover, tech companies today are increasingly oriented around and dominated by technical employees, rather than "business" or marketing staff. If women aren't represented amongst these technical employees and founders, that will have a detrimental effect on society, because these products will be less likely to reflect the needs of women. Case in point: the ongoing failure of Twitter to properly ha for abusive behaviour and harassment, which overwhelmingly affects women.