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And yet Germany operates a massively well-funded federal security service that is conducting exactly that sort of mass surveillance today -- only now far more s

And yet Germany operates a massively well-funded federal security service that is conducting exactly that sort of mass surveillance today -- only now far more sophisticated than even Facebook, since they can surveil the entire Internet, in exactly the same manner as the NSA does. Other European countries are doing the same. It's at best naive and at worst hypocritical to pretend that Europeans care so much more about personal privacy than Americans do while that is going on.

wvh 10y ago
What a "democratically elected" government does and what private people think is acceptable are not necessarily the same thing. There's often a surprisingly strong discrepancy between government action and the will of the people. Also, a lot of people feel that the government (in a Western/Northern European country) is mostly trying to protect its society even if some actions are misguided, while it's hard to make a statement about the benevolence of large corporations. Governments ought to be loyal to its citizens, while corporations only answer to their shareholders; their actions have no moral leeway nor are they beneficial to the majority of people. Facebook is not trying to protect society, it's trying to benefit from it. In most EU countries you are entitled by law to request to see and even demand removal of any data any company has on you at any time. This has been problematic in the past but will clash hard in the future with companies based outside the EU wanting to do business – or whatever name you want to call the activities of internet giants – with EU citizens.
- pjlegato 10y ago
  The original thesis I was responding to was the theory that, due to historical experiences, Europeans are somehow much more concerned with personal privacy (in general) than others, which is is empirically false. State versus corporate surveillance was not the topic. Europeans may indeed be more mistrustful of corporations than others, I don't know; but Europeans are clearly not so concerned about personal privacy in general as compared to others (though they seem to like to believe that they are.) The BND, and its local equivalents in other European countries, are now openly conducting mass surveillance and citizen profiling on a scale that neither the Stasi nor Facebook could ever dream of achieving. Most of the citizens of Europe don't seem to care much at all about this. Therefore, the theory that Europeans are especially privacy-conscious as compared to others is false. Incidentally, with corporate surveillance, you (at least in theory) have the option to simply not use that corporation's products. You can't opt out of state surveillance.
  - wvh 10y ago
    There's a difference between "concerned with personal privacy" and "privacy-conscious". Europeans, like people pretty much anybody in the world, are oblivious, ill-informed or simply don't care about what goes on above their heads or behind their backs. People just want to live their lives. But when revelations and news reports bring up issues concerning privacy violations – by the state, other countries or companies – it does invoke memories and provoke visceral responses. A lot of Europeans are not totally apathetic to privacy concerns, especially when brought to their attention. And Europeans are somewhat irritated with the freedom given to big corporations and (lack of) free market regulation in the US, lumped in with Wall Street and banking systems. In a sense, simplistically put, our current governments are (with) us, while some of those internet giants are billboards of unfettered capitalist excess, trying to exploit us. In short, I do think a lot of Europeans are more concerned about privacy than Americans, once it gets on their radar; and it's always worse when it's done by somebody far away.

wvh 10y ago

What a "democratically elected" government does and what private people think is acceptable are not necessarily the same thing. There's often a surprisingly strong discrepancy between government action and the will of the people. Also, a lot of people feel that the government (in a Western/Northern European country) is mostly trying to protect its society even if some actions are misguided, while it's hard to make a statement about the benevolence of large corporations. Governments ought to be loyal to its citizens, while corporations only answer to their shareholders; their actions have no moral leeway nor are they beneficial to the majority of people. Facebook is not trying to protect society, it's trying to benefit from it. In most EU countries you are entitled by law to request to see and even demand removal of any data any company has on you at any time. This has been problematic in the past but will clash hard in the future with companies based outside the EU wanting to do business – or whatever name you want to call the activities of internet giants – with EU citizens.

pjlegato 10y ago
The original thesis I was responding to was the theory that, due to historical experiences, Europeans are somehow much more concerned with personal privacy (in general) than others, which is is empirically false. State versus corporate surveillance was not the topic. Europeans may indeed be more mistrustful of corporations than others, I don't know; but Europeans are clearly not so concerned about personal privacy in general as compared to others (though they seem to like to believe that they are.) The BND, and its local equivalents in other European countries, are now openly conducting mass surveillance and citizen profiling on a scale that neither the Stasi nor Facebook could ever dream of achieving. Most of the citizens of Europe don't seem to care much at all about this. Therefore, the theory that Europeans are especially privacy-conscious as compared to others is false. Incidentally, with corporate surveillance, you (at least in theory) have the option to simply not use that corporation's products. You can't opt out of state surveillance.
- wvh 10y ago
  There's a difference between "concerned with personal privacy" and "privacy-conscious". Europeans, like people pretty much anybody in the world, are oblivious, ill-informed or simply don't care about what goes on above their heads or behind their backs. People just want to live their lives. But when revelations and news reports bring up issues concerning privacy violations – by the state, other countries or companies – it does invoke memories and provoke visceral responses. A lot of Europeans are not totally apathetic to privacy concerns, especially when brought to their attention. And Europeans are somewhat irritated with the freedom given to big corporations and (lack of) free market regulation in the US, lumped in with Wall Street and banking systems. In a sense, simplistically put, our current governments are (with) us, while some of those internet giants are billboards of unfettered capitalist excess, trying to exploit us. In short, I do think a lot of Europeans are more concerned about privacy than Americans, once it gets on their radar; and it's always worse when it's done by somebody far away.