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Maybe I'm misunderstanding but you seem to be saying "Let's not be excited about colonizing another planet-- life will be just as depressing there."

pasquinelli 10y ago
it's a fair point.
saiprashanth93 10y ago
I think the point being made is life will be just as depressing in Mars if we are running behind things in Mars like we do here.
jsprogrammer 10y ago
You misunderstood. Nowhere was it implied that we shouldn't be excited about anything.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
wolfram74 10y ago
It's more like unless we are conscientious about what dependencies we include, we will have the same headaches with bloat using python as we have using ruby. And if the environment change is going to cost a very large amount, it would be prudent to see if any improvements can be made locally first as a form of low hanging fruit.
- lloeki 10y ago
  Alternatively, those are orthogonal problems, and we can pursue improvements and achievements in both.
AndrewKemendo 10y ago
That's actually not a bad way to put it! Think about it this way. What if there was an uninhabited island out in the Pacific that was hard to get to. What makes it worth trying to get to? There isn't anything any more special there than here. In fact from all we've seen so far it's much less special. Same goes for Mars. What is the value in being "multi-planetary?" I mean the idea that this is a hedge against some existential threat to humanity is silly. Mars is more hostile to human life TODAY than earth would be after a massive ELE asteroid - and the likelihood of an ELE asteroid is actually higher for Mars as it does not have a stable barrier atmosphere as good as Earth's - meteorites are more frequent as a result. So best case scenario is that we have a group of people who put 75% of their time into just surviving because there is no atmosphere or biome to support them. On top of that these people have the same biological makeup - including cognitive limits, biases etc...as the rest of us on earth so even if they sorted everything out, tribalism and the rest of our hardwired heuristics would just make them behave like the rest of us. The better approach is to start engineering our faults out using data to make us better, more resilient processors of information and discovery. Improve humanity and everything is easier.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  I bet the first people that landed on Hawaii were pretty excited about it. The technical challenges on Mars will probably only compound the political problems. Double plus fun.
  - vkou 10y ago
    Hawaii has an extremely productive ecosystem. When your primary needs are food, shelter, and warmth, it's an absolute paradise. The first people who landed on the Galapagos islands were also pretty excited about it. Once they realized that there is no fresh water there, they got the hell out.
- raizinho 10y ago
  If humanity lasts, in about a billion years the Earth will be no longer be in the Sun's habitable zone. Might as well start preparing from now.
  - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
    Better (probably easier too) to start transitioning humans to a different being. Make the merge with AGI and move out of traditional biology.
    - yazaddaruvala 10y ago
      For the last few years, I've been telling people I believe I'd live forever, and they always ask me why I'd want to. I don't have a great reason (lets not make this about that). Point of story, entropy in our universe will eventually cause its end, and I don't want to die then either. Ideally, before the cold death of the universe, I want to transition my body into a higher dimensional body. So I'm entirely in support of your argument. However, digitizing our brains, or any other transition away from the status quo right now is not only not currently possible, it is currently unimaginable. There have been no prototypes, no significant research, not even any real theories on how to accomplish such a task. Even repairing/repurposing parts of our current bodies is a giant challenge. Hell, we can't even appropriately map our biology or understand how they actually work. Transitioning away from biology will take time. However, until that day, we need to stay alive and we need more resources. Becoming multi-planetary is just one "safe"(predictable) step towards the future you would prefer.
M_Grey 10y ago
I think anytime someone plays to the deeply held hopes and dreams of a given community, especially ones that are related to long-term survival, "destiny" and the like... be very very careful and very very skeptical. That's not to say you should be depressive and cynical, but you should ask questions and seek motives. We're really not close to being a "multiplanetary species", and the major bottlenecks have nothing to do with the rockets to get us out there. A lot of smart people are aware of just how much trouble our species is in over the next century or so, and there's an element of understandable misery and panic. That really is no excuse however for cheering and weeping with joy when the guy selling the rockets points to the stars and says, "Humanity's future!"
- nitrogen 10y ago
  That really is no excuse however for cheering and weeping with joy when the guy selling the rockets points to the stars and says, "Humanity's future!" Why not? Just because he's selling something doesn't mean his actions aren't useful.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    I said a lot of other things in that post which answers that question, before the one sentence you decided to reply to.
    - nitrogen 10y ago
      My reply is to your whole comment. I am still not convinced that it is inappropriate to celebrate SpaceX, if for no other reason than to encourage others to join in the vision of a multiplanetary society.
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        Celebrate SpaceX for what they're actually doing, which is impressive as hell, not for empty talk.

pasquinelli 10y ago

it's a fair point.

saiprashanth93 10y ago

I think the point being made is life will be just as depressing in Mars if we are running behind things in Mars like we do here.

jsprogrammer 10y ago

You misunderstood. Nowhere was it implied that we shouldn't be excited about anything.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

wolfram74 10y ago

It's more like unless we are conscientious about what dependencies we include, we will have the same headaches with bloat using python as we have using ruby. And if the environment change is going to cost a very large amount, it would be prudent to see if any improvements can be made locally first as a form of low hanging fruit.

lloeki 10y ago
Alternatively, those are orthogonal problems, and we can pursue improvements and achievements in both.

AndrewKemendo 10y ago

That's actually not a bad way to put it! Think about it this way. What if there was an uninhabited island out in the Pacific that was hard to get to. What makes it worth trying to get to? There isn't anything any more special there than here. In fact from all we've seen so far it's much less special. Same goes for Mars. What is the value in being "multi-planetary?" I mean the idea that this is a hedge against some existential threat to humanity is silly. Mars is more hostile to human life TODAY than earth would be after a massive ELE asteroid - and the likelihood of an ELE asteroid is actually higher for Mars as it does not have a stable barrier atmosphere as good as Earth's - meteorites are more frequent as a result. So best case scenario is that we have a group of people who put 75% of their time into just surviving because there is no atmosphere or biome to support them. On top of that these people have the same biological makeup - including cognitive limits, biases etc...as the rest of us on earth so even if they sorted everything out, tribalism and the rest of our hardwired heuristics would just make them behave like the rest of us. The better approach is to start engineering our faults out using data to make us better, more resilient processors of information and discovery. Improve humanity and everything is easier.

maxerickson 10y ago
I bet the first people that landed on Hawaii were pretty excited about it. The technical challenges on Mars will probably only compound the political problems. Double plus fun.
- vkou 10y ago
  Hawaii has an extremely productive ecosystem. When your primary needs are food, shelter, and warmth, it's an absolute paradise. The first people who landed on the Galapagos islands were also pretty excited about it. Once they realized that there is no fresh water there, they got the hell out.
raizinho 10y ago
If humanity lasts, in about a billion years the Earth will be no longer be in the Sun's habitable zone. Might as well start preparing from now.
- AndrewKemendo 10y ago
  Better (probably easier too) to start transitioning humans to a different being. Make the merge with AGI and move out of traditional biology.
  - yazaddaruvala 10y ago
    For the last few years, I've been telling people I believe I'd live forever, and they always ask me why I'd want to. I don't have a great reason (lets not make this about that). Point of story, entropy in our universe will eventually cause its end, and I don't want to die then either. Ideally, before the cold death of the universe, I want to transition my body into a higher dimensional body. So I'm entirely in support of your argument. However, digitizing our brains, or any other transition away from the status quo right now is not only not currently possible, it is currently unimaginable. There have been no prototypes, no significant research, not even any real theories on how to accomplish such a task. Even repairing/repurposing parts of our current bodies is a giant challenge. Hell, we can't even appropriately map our biology or understand how they actually work. Transitioning away from biology will take time. However, until that day, we need to stay alive and we need more resources. Becoming multi-planetary is just one "safe"(predictable) step towards the future you would prefer.

M_Grey 10y ago

I think anytime someone plays to the deeply held hopes and dreams of a given community, especially ones that are related to long-term survival, "destiny" and the like... be very very careful and very very skeptical. That's not to say you should be depressive and cynical, but you should ask questions and seek motives. We're really not close to being a "multiplanetary species", and the major bottlenecks have nothing to do with the rockets to get us out there. A lot of smart people are aware of just how much trouble our species is in over the next century or so, and there's an element of understandable misery and panic. That really is no excuse however for cheering and weeping with joy when the guy selling the rockets points to the stars and says, "Humanity's future!"

nitrogen 10y ago
That really is no excuse however for cheering and weeping with joy when the guy selling the rockets points to the stars and says, "Humanity's future!" Why not? Just because he's selling something doesn't mean his actions aren't useful.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  I said a lot of other things in that post which answers that question, before the one sentence you decided to reply to.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    My reply is to your whole comment. I am still not convinced that it is inappropriate to celebrate SpaceX, if for no other reason than to encourage others to join in the vision of a multiplanetary society.
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      Celebrate SpaceX for what they're actually doing, which is impressive as hell, not for empty talk.