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I don't think the average Tesla owner cares about "cheaper to operate". I have a weird feeling the average Tesla owner has a classic, gas guzzling, vechicle/

I don't think the average Tesla owner cares about "cheaper to operate". I have a weird feeling the average Tesla owner has a classic, gas guzzling, vechicle/vechicles in their multi-unit garage. Teslas are a rich man's car. I'm waiting for the day it becomes a poor/middle class vechicle. I know I won't buy a used one until they open up the parts supply, and open up the operating system. I don't see that day coming. I really wanted one a year ago. I figured they must have a few that have been wrecked. I wanted to put one back on the road, with a salvage title. I found it's practically impossible. As to holding their value, yes--they are commanding high prices, even used. They are a rich man's novelty. If a rich man can get deal on a used car, why not pay bite. It's a small demographic sector of society. It's a niche market right now. My hope is in the future all electric vechicle manufactures are required to open up their software, so guys like myself can buy in the secondary market, tweak, and get these used electric cars back on the road, in a cost effective way. (Dissabled the AI if you think if the Tesla, or federal government fears guys, like myself, will tinkering with it. I can live without the AI. I do want a cheap, used, electric vechicle.)

GirlsCanCode 10y ago
No. Our second car is a Chevy Volt. Stop being so prejudiced against those who may be more productive than you are.
pjc50 10y ago
I too am looking for a cheap used electric vehicle, and the Leaf is almost the right answer. But I very much doubt that the software will ever be open, as that's where the value-add and "secret sauce" is. It'll be interesting to see what if any legislative response happens as a result of the VW scandal, but too few people understand the implications. (I have exactly the wrong use pattern for an electric car: my petrol car sits unused for most of the week, but every now and again I drive it several hundred miles.)
- tehwebguy 10y ago
  This month you can lease a Fiat 500e in CA for a total cost of under $3k after rebates (36mo, 10k mi/yr)
  - coredog64 10y ago
    I would love to buy a 500e, but FCA has decided they are compliance cars and will only sell them in CARB states.
    - josinalvo 10y ago
      FCA = Fiat Chrysler ? (I had read it like some sort of regulatory agency or independent association)
- drzaiusapelord 10y ago
  The leaf just seems to make too many compromises to reach low cost. The tiny size, the poor range, the ugly styling, the tiny wheels, etc. The Chevy Bolt is no looker, but it seems to be less of a compromise than the Leaf. It look much more roomy inside and gets Tesla-like range at 240 miles per charge. Obviously, everyone here is waiting on the Tesla 3, but the problem is that the federal $7,500 tax credit is limited by quantity by manufacturer. Tesla will most likely run out before Chevy does, which might give Chevy the advantage here. It does look like the 3 will come in around $3,000 less than the Bolt, which is going to be quite the advantage for Tesla's customers who have pre-ordered. Right now it looks like non-pre-orders will not be able to get the tax credit.
  - outworlder 10y ago
    > The leaf just seems to make too many compromises to reach low cost. The tiny size, the poor range, the ugly styling, the tiny wheels, etc. Tiny size? Just the other day I fit a chest freezer I bought at CostCo inside it. That's not TINY. In fact, I was remarking that, while it does look small, it's just because the average US car is huge. In fact, it's likely to be bigger then what most people drive in Europe. Agreed that the wheels are small. The car is heavy and tire lifetime is not the greatest as a result. The Bolt is much smaller than the Leaf. I'd get a Volt if I were worried about range today. It is an electric car, albeit one with a generator.
atemerev 10y ago
It is about $1100/month (can be less). Expensive, but not outrageously so, well within reach of, say, an experienced software engineer in SV, NYC or London. We are still considered middle class, right?
- jdavis703 10y ago
  When you're already paying extreme housing costs? I really don't think most SWEs I know could afford this... Unless they wanted to give up saving for retirement, owning a house, etc.
  - gambiting 10y ago
    You can have a model S in the UK for 395 pounds(¬500USD) /month. That's a 7-year contract, but given the 8 year warranty on the car, I don't really see a problem here. And 395/month is very affordable if you have a job in IT, even outside london(I make waaaaaay less than any of the figures in the article above and my monthly payments for the car are larger than this).
    - forgetsusername 10y ago
      >That's a 7-year contract, but given the 8 year warranty on the car How do you account for the implied risk that Tesla doesn't exist in 8 years? That's a long ways away, and there's no guarantee they make it.
      - MichaelBurge 10y ago
        You could buy additional insurance if you're actually worried about this. Or you could short their stock as a hedge, and buy some options to cover the upside risk. Or you could buy the car using a title-backed no-recourse loan, pushing this risk onto the lender. Or you could lease the car rather than buy it.
        tamana 10y ago
j2bax 10y ago
Are you aware of Musks overall goal of using economies of scale to get down to an affordable 'every mans' car model? Anyone that thinks they could have rolled the manufacturing to accomplish this out from day one (not having ever manufactured a car) doesn't know how much is involved in car manufacturing, or manufacturing just about anything for the mass market... I'm assuming you know all this though considering how much you've looked into acquiring a Model S and the fact that you are on HN.
feld 10y ago
I know of several people for whom it is their only car...
olivermarks 10y ago
http://evwest.com/ http://evwest.com/ do a conversion, that is the best bang for buck right now and you have control over surveillance

GirlsCanCode 10y ago

No. Our second car is a Chevy Volt. Stop being so prejudiced against those who may be more productive than you are.

pjc50 10y ago

I too am looking for a cheap used electric vehicle, and the Leaf is almost the right answer. But I very much doubt that the software will ever be open, as that's where the value-add and "secret sauce" is. It'll be interesting to see what if any legislative response happens as a result of the VW scandal, but too few people understand the implications. (I have exactly the wrong use pattern for an electric car: my petrol car sits unused for most of the week, but every now and again I drive it several hundred miles.)

tehwebguy 10y ago
This month you can lease a Fiat 500e in CA for a total cost of under $3k after rebates (36mo, 10k mi/yr)
- coredog64 10y ago
  I would love to buy a 500e, but FCA has decided they are compliance cars and will only sell them in CARB states.
  - josinalvo 10y ago
    FCA = Fiat Chrysler ? (I had read it like some sort of regulatory agency or independent association)
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
The leaf just seems to make too many compromises to reach low cost. The tiny size, the poor range, the ugly styling, the tiny wheels, etc. The Chevy Bolt is no looker, but it seems to be less of a compromise than the Leaf. It look much more roomy inside and gets Tesla-like range at 240 miles per charge. Obviously, everyone here is waiting on the Tesla 3, but the problem is that the federal $7,500 tax credit is limited by quantity by manufacturer. Tesla will most likely run out before Chevy does, which might give Chevy the advantage here. It does look like the 3 will come in around $3,000 less than the Bolt, which is going to be quite the advantage for Tesla's customers who have pre-ordered. Right now it looks like non-pre-orders will not be able to get the tax credit.
- outworlder 10y ago
  > The leaf just seems to make too many compromises to reach low cost. The tiny size, the poor range, the ugly styling, the tiny wheels, etc. Tiny size? Just the other day I fit a chest freezer I bought at CostCo inside it. That's not TINY. In fact, I was remarking that, while it does look small, it's just because the average US car is huge. In fact, it's likely to be bigger then what most people drive in Europe. Agreed that the wheels are small. The car is heavy and tire lifetime is not the greatest as a result. The Bolt is much smaller than the Leaf. I'd get a Volt if I were worried about range today. It is an electric car, albeit one with a generator.

atemerev 10y ago

It is about $1100/month (can be less). Expensive, but not outrageously so, well within reach of, say, an experienced software engineer in SV, NYC or London. We are still considered middle class, right?

jdavis703 10y ago
When you're already paying extreme housing costs? I really don't think most SWEs I know could afford this... Unless they wanted to give up saving for retirement, owning a house, etc.
- gambiting 10y ago
  You can have a model S in the UK for 395 pounds(¬500USD) /month. That's a 7-year contract, but given the 8 year warranty on the car, I don't really see a problem here. And 395/month is very affordable if you have a job in IT, even outside london(I make waaaaaay less than any of the figures in the article above and my monthly payments for the car are larger than this).
  - forgetsusername 10y ago
    >That's a 7-year contract, but given the 8 year warranty on the car How do you account for the implied risk that Tesla doesn't exist in 8 years? That's a long ways away, and there's no guarantee they make it.
    - MichaelBurge 10y ago
      You could buy additional insurance if you're actually worried about this. Or you could short their stock as a hedge, and buy some options to cover the upside risk. Or you could buy the car using a title-backed no-recourse loan, pushing this risk onto the lender. Or you could lease the car rather than buy it.
      - tamana 10y ago

j2bax 10y ago

Are you aware of Musks overall goal of using economies of scale to get down to an affordable 'every mans' car model? Anyone that thinks they could have rolled the manufacturing to accomplish this out from day one (not having ever manufactured a car) doesn't know how much is involved in car manufacturing, or manufacturing just about anything for the mass market... I'm assuming you know all this though considering how much you've looked into acquiring a Model S and the fact that you are on HN.

feld 10y ago

I know of several people for whom it is their only car...

olivermarks 10y ago

http://evwest.com/ http://evwest.com/ do a conversion, that is the best bang for buck right now and you have control over surveillance