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"The 2016 US Presidential election feels like the most important one so far in my lifetime." -sama I'm the same age as Sam. But I must confess I don't see why

"The 2016 US Presidential election feels like the most important one so far in my lifetime." -sama I'm the same age as Sam. But I must confess I don't see why he sees this one as the most important. Both candidates are terrible (for different reasons). It's quite damning of the entire political establishment. I just want to get through the next 4 years and hope that either party can finally find one good candidate.

colmvp 10y ago
Same. I'd argue the 2000 election was far more important especially given the creation of the PATRIOT act and the decision to invade Iraq, both of which were coincidentally voted for by one of the current candidates.
- lintiness 10y ago
  uh, you couldn't know what was going to happen a year later when voting in 2000.
  - specialist 10y ago
    Clinton and Gore knew. Their warnings were ignored.
    - mason240 10y ago
      I'm sure they did, as they both would have taken the exact same course of action. The PATRIOT Act itself was written by Sen Joe Biden ffs.
      - lern_too_spel 10y ago
        The same course of action? War with Afghanistan was certainly inevitable after 9/11 (assuming Gore, like Bush didn't follow up on the warnings, and the attacks still happened). The Iraq War, on the other hand, would not have happened.
        mason240 10y ago
        Regime change in Iraq was the official policy of the Clinton administration, President Clinton initiated frequent air strikes and other military action against Saddam, Vice President Gore criticized George HW Bush for not removing Saddam in 1991 when he had the chance, and Sen Hillary Clinton voted to authorize the war in 2003 (while she is certainly an independent person, they have been very closely aligned in policy, both Hillary and Gore were/are self-styled continuations of Bill Clinton's Presidency), and there was broad support for removing Saddam from power even before 9/11.
      - mikeyouse 10y ago
        > The PATRIOT Act itself was written by Sen Joe Biden ffs. This is pretty misleading. The Patriot Act was written by Jim Sensenbrenner, a Republican from Wisconsin (which makes sense since the R's had majority control of the House in 2001). Joe Biden wrote an anti-terrorism bill in 1995 in the wake of the Oklahoma City Bombing that had many similar provisions regarding Federal jurisdiction over acts of terrorism, financial controls, etc. In one of Joe's wonderful bits of rhetorical flourish while debating the Patriot Act in 2001, he said that Ashcroft basically sent up his bill. So you could say that he wrote a precursor to the Patriot Act, but he's also voted against expanded wiretaps and the Habeas violations at Guantanamo so it's not like he's a neocon.
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    But not knowing what is going to happen is part of being President. You have to choose the candidate that you think will best represent you in the best of times, the worst of times, and every possibility in between.
specialist 10y ago
"I don't see why he sees this one as the most important." This cycle realigns the USA. Like Reagan did in 1980, in reverse. Baring an Act of God, Hillary has already won. Ignore the polls. Everyone has their own reasons to pretend its close. Media wants a horse race and more advertising dollars. If Hillary's base thinks the election is in the bag, they might stay home. Donald is Donald. Hillary's campaign is pushing hard, to flip as many states as possible. The races to watch are down ballot, especially state houses and judges. This election is the set up for the 2021 redistricting, to win back the US House for a generation. REDMAP in reverse. The GOP "establishment" (business friendly moderates) might even be okay with that. REDMAP worked too well. They probably want to wrest control of their party back (from the Tea Party).
- chris11 10y ago
  538 has Trump .6% ahead of Clinton, the other polls have CLinton ahead, but her highest is at 54% right now. That's basically a coin flip, not an act of god. http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#now http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?...
  - specialist 10y ago
    Aha. Thank you. You helped me figure out Trump's angle. After he loses (badly), Trump will claim the election was rigged, stolen, whatever. Because the returns won't match the polling. An argument well worn by the left when Gore beat Bush in 2000. Please recall that Romney was surprised he lost. He too thought too much of the polls. But whereas Romney had a decent campaign, posing a credible threat, he faced the most sophisticated campaign in history, with an amazing ground game (GOTV). Comparatively, Trump has nothing resembling a campaign. A twitter account. Some campaign stops. No volunteer organization. And certainly no ground game. Rather, Trump's effort is solely about enriching Trump, a play book he's copying from Giuliani, Grigrich, and a host of other faux GOP candidates.
    - chris11 10y ago
      There's also a rumor going around that he plans to start a media company if he looses because he has some very strong supporters and he think his campaign should have been covered differently.

colmvp 10y ago

Same. I'd argue the 2000 election was far more important especially given the creation of the PATRIOT act and the decision to invade Iraq, both of which were coincidentally voted for by one of the current candidates.

lintiness 10y ago
uh, you couldn't know what was going to happen a year later when voting in 2000.
- specialist 10y ago
  Clinton and Gore knew. Their warnings were ignored.
  - mason240 10y ago
    I'm sure they did, as they both would have taken the exact same course of action. The PATRIOT Act itself was written by Sen Joe Biden ffs.
    - lern_too_spel 10y ago
      The same course of action? War with Afghanistan was certainly inevitable after 9/11 (assuming Gore, like Bush didn't follow up on the warnings, and the attacks still happened). The Iraq War, on the other hand, would not have happened.
      - mason240 10y ago
        Regime change in Iraq was the official policy of the Clinton administration, President Clinton initiated frequent air strikes and other military action against Saddam, Vice President Gore criticized George HW Bush for not removing Saddam in 1991 when he had the chance, and Sen Hillary Clinton voted to authorize the war in 2003 (while she is certainly an independent person, they have been very closely aligned in policy, both Hillary and Gore were/are self-styled continuations of Bill Clinton's Presidency), and there was broad support for removing Saddam from power even before 9/11.
    - mikeyouse 10y ago
      > The PATRIOT Act itself was written by Sen Joe Biden ffs. This is pretty misleading. The Patriot Act was written by Jim Sensenbrenner, a Republican from Wisconsin (which makes sense since the R's had majority control of the House in 2001). Joe Biden wrote an anti-terrorism bill in 1995 in the wake of the Oklahoma City Bombing that had many similar provisions regarding Federal jurisdiction over acts of terrorism, financial controls, etc. In one of Joe's wonderful bits of rhetorical flourish while debating the Patriot Act in 2001, he said that Ashcroft basically sent up his bill. So you could say that he wrote a precursor to the Patriot Act, but he's also voted against expanded wiretaps and the Habeas violations at Guantanamo so it's not like he's a neocon.
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  But not knowing what is going to happen is part of being President. You have to choose the candidate that you think will best represent you in the best of times, the worst of times, and every possibility in between.

specialist 10y ago

"I don't see why he sees this one as the most important." This cycle realigns the USA. Like Reagan did in 1980, in reverse. Baring an Act of God, Hillary has already won. Ignore the polls. Everyone has their own reasons to pretend its close. Media wants a horse race and more advertising dollars. If Hillary's base thinks the election is in the bag, they might stay home. Donald is Donald. Hillary's campaign is pushing hard, to flip as many states as possible. The races to watch are down ballot, especially state houses and judges. This election is the set up for the 2021 redistricting, to win back the US House for a generation. REDMAP in reverse. The GOP "establishment" (business friendly moderates) might even be okay with that. REDMAP worked too well. They probably want to wrest control of their party back (from the Tea Party).

chris11 10y ago
538 has Trump .6% ahead of Clinton, the other polls have CLinton ahead, but her highest is at 54% right now. That's basically a coin flip, not an act of god. http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#now http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?...
- specialist 10y ago
  Aha. Thank you. You helped me figure out Trump's angle. After he loses (badly), Trump will claim the election was rigged, stolen, whatever. Because the returns won't match the polling. An argument well worn by the left when Gore beat Bush in 2000. Please recall that Romney was surprised he lost. He too thought too much of the polls. But whereas Romney had a decent campaign, posing a credible threat, he faced the most sophisticated campaign in history, with an amazing ground game (GOTV). Comparatively, Trump has nothing resembling a campaign. A twitter account. Some campaign stops. No volunteer organization. And certainly no ground game. Rather, Trump's effort is solely about enriching Trump, a play book he's copying from Giuliani, Grigrich, and a host of other faux GOP candidates.
  - chris11 10y ago
    There's also a rumor going around that he plans to start a media company if he looses because he has some very strong supporters and he think his campaign should have been covered differently.