6 ms·

In the last 10 years I wouldn't have bet on C# to be the language to be the most excited about, and yet here we are. Kudos for dealing with fragmentation

bopcrane 10y ago
I hope 'new Microsoft' continues to embrace open source and cross-platform - I'm very impressed and never would have imagined this direction a decade ago, either
- kennell 10y ago
  They are going in the right direction but i feel like they still have a long way to go before people in the Linux/OSX world start taking C# seriously and we see actual products.
  - oblio 10y ago
    First of all they need to stabilize. There's still a lot of churn even for command line apps/server, let alone for making desktop apps.
  - dblooman 10y ago
    Especially with all the hype around containers, C# is left in the cold. The deployment story would have to be as good on Linux for many to even consider production services
    - tracker1 10y ago
      I've been able to use several of the onbuild base images with C# projects.. given they weren't anything huge, but it's been pretty cool. Should only get better.
    - manigandham 10y ago
      The programming language has nothing to do with the deployment or containers.
- drawkbox 10y ago
  They will, because ultimately their new OS for developers is Azure. They do push you towards that but it is actually a good cloud system. Microsoft has moved lock-in further up to the cloud (just like everyone else AWS, Google) and the tools are so nice once visual studio is truly cross platform (not just vs code -- though nice competition to sublime/atom/etc) then a tool lockin.
  - tracker1 10y ago
    I can imagine VS Code expanding to cover a lot of the VS use case via plugins though...
- david-given 10y ago
  Personally, I think it's all thanks to Oracle. When Microsoft suddenly realised that they were no longer the most hated IT company in the world, the shock was too much for them, and they just stopped trying any more. ... Seriously, I have, right now, just dropped out of Vim into VSCode to debug a C program, because the VSCode debugger is fantastic. Everything just... works. In fact, I'd drop Vim in a heartbeat in favour of VSCode if only the vim keybindings were better, but right now they're pretty terrible and my fingers get confused. (Mercurial integration would be nice too, but mostly I use hg from the command line so I don't mind.) I like the new Microsoft.
rch 10y ago
Excited? Having just inherited a previously outsourced ASP.NET MVC application, I feel like announcements like this ammount to tiny, tentative steps towards tolerable. Portability work should have started over a decade ago.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  Portability work started nearly 2 decades ago. .NET has been multiplatform from the start. Around the first release they even had an "open" source version that ran on BSD, thought not with all the libraries.
  - rch 10y ago
    I get that you can jump through certain hoops to make cross-platform development possible, but the applications I've seen are 'all-in' with MS (even to the point of inappropriately depending on system services like ftp). Portability simply isn't the norm, and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise.
    - sjellis 10y ago
      Yes, please let's not try to revise history. I've seen Microsoft evangelists play games like this, and IMO it's a terrible way to promote your preferred platform. .NET Core will stand on it's own merits, it doesn't gain from inaccurate statements about the past.
      - MichaelGG 10y ago
        The actual design and standard are designed to be multiplatform. You can see it in a lot APIs, like Environment.NewLine -- not needed if you only target Windows. MS released Rotor as a proof of concept. It's just an argument over implementations, which were admittedly lacking. And the standard parts are smaller than the whole .net bits MS shipped.
  - fail2fail2ban 10y ago
    .NET was multi-language and C# was an open standard; .NET itself was not multi-platform. I was there at the start. I was a beta tester for the first Visual Studio.NET. The reason Mono exists is because C# is an open standard and Miguel and Xamian (or whatever they were calling themselves then) were able to create .NET from the ground up, called Mono. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework
2bitencryption 10y ago
I started using Xamarin to develop an Android app, expecting the Xamarin platform to be some gross in-between which only exists to squeeze just a few more developers onto C#. But, no joke, it's a BETTER experience than Android Studio. I had a much better time using Xamarin Studio (on OS X) and Visual Studio with Xamarin (on Windows) than I ever did with Android Studio. And not just because of the tools: C# provides so many great features that make Android development awesome on it. And the API is essentially the same as the true Android Java API; I found myself googling "start an activity on Android" rather than "Xamarin start an activity on Android" because it's all done the same way. I normally don't obsess about my code looking clean and beautiful, but when I wrote my simple app in C# it shorter and easier to read than when I did it in the Android Studio.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  I still don't understand how Microsoft was able to provide a better debugging and tooling experience for Android, than Google itself for their own OS, although Android Studio 2.2 finally seems to be usable.
  - Delmania 10y ago
    > I still don't understand how Microsoft was able to provide a better debugging and tooling experience for Android, than Google itself for their own OS, although Android Studio 2.2 finally seems to be usable. Visual Studio was first released in 1997, the company has 20 years experience in designing and building tooling. I believe they also have a very firm dogfooding policy, and some very intelligent people work there. Google changed the search engine landscape and created the only competitor to the iPhone, but building tools and tooling is definitely not a key strength.
    - geldan 10y ago
      Except browser tooling, where they are far ahead of others.
      - 10y ago
2bitencryption 10y ago
It looks like the old way of "MAKE them use it by making ourselves the only option" has given way to "Make them WANT to use it because if we don't they'll just use something else." I am okay with this.

bopcrane 10y ago

I hope 'new Microsoft' continues to embrace open source and cross-platform - I'm very impressed and never would have imagined this direction a decade ago, either

kennell 10y ago
They are going in the right direction but i feel like they still have a long way to go before people in the Linux/OSX world start taking C# seriously and we see actual products.
- oblio 10y ago
  First of all they need to stabilize. There's still a lot of churn even for command line apps/server, let alone for making desktop apps.
- dblooman 10y ago
  Especially with all the hype around containers, C# is left in the cold. The deployment story would have to be as good on Linux for many to even consider production services
  - tracker1 10y ago
    I've been able to use several of the onbuild base images with C# projects.. given they weren't anything huge, but it's been pretty cool. Should only get better.
  - manigandham 10y ago
    The programming language has nothing to do with the deployment or containers.
drawkbox 10y ago
They will, because ultimately their new OS for developers is Azure. They do push you towards that but it is actually a good cloud system. Microsoft has moved lock-in further up to the cloud (just like everyone else AWS, Google) and the tools are so nice once visual studio is truly cross platform (not just vs code -- though nice competition to sublime/atom/etc) then a tool lockin.
- tracker1 10y ago
  I can imagine VS Code expanding to cover a lot of the VS use case via plugins though...
david-given 10y ago
Personally, I think it's all thanks to Oracle. When Microsoft suddenly realised that they were no longer the most hated IT company in the world, the shock was too much for them, and they just stopped trying any more. ... Seriously, I have, right now, just dropped out of Vim into VSCode to debug a C program, because the VSCode debugger is fantastic. Everything just... works. In fact, I'd drop Vim in a heartbeat in favour of VSCode if only the vim keybindings were better, but right now they're pretty terrible and my fingers get confused. (Mercurial integration would be nice too, but mostly I use hg from the command line so I don't mind.) I like the new Microsoft.

rch 10y ago

Excited? Having just inherited a previously outsourced ASP.NET MVC application, I feel like announcements like this ammount to tiny, tentative steps towards tolerable. Portability work should have started over a decade ago.

MichaelGG 10y ago
Portability work started nearly 2 decades ago. .NET has been multiplatform from the start. Around the first release they even had an "open" source version that ran on BSD, thought not with all the libraries.
- rch 10y ago
  I get that you can jump through certain hoops to make cross-platform development possible, but the applications I've seen are 'all-in' with MS (even to the point of inappropriately depending on system services like ftp). Portability simply isn't the norm, and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise.
  - sjellis 10y ago
    Yes, please let's not try to revise history. I've seen Microsoft evangelists play games like this, and IMO it's a terrible way to promote your preferred platform. .NET Core will stand on it's own merits, it doesn't gain from inaccurate statements about the past.
    - MichaelGG 10y ago
      The actual design and standard are designed to be multiplatform. You can see it in a lot APIs, like Environment.NewLine -- not needed if you only target Windows. MS released Rotor as a proof of concept. It's just an argument over implementations, which were admittedly lacking. And the standard parts are smaller than the whole .net bits MS shipped.
- fail2fail2ban 10y ago
  .NET was multi-language and C# was an open standard; .NET itself was not multi-platform. I was there at the start. I was a beta tester for the first Visual Studio.NET. The reason Mono exists is because C# is an open standard and Miguel and Xamian (or whatever they were calling themselves then) were able to create .NET from the ground up, called Mono. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework

2bitencryption 10y ago

I started using Xamarin to develop an Android app, expecting the Xamarin platform to be some gross in-between which only exists to squeeze just a few more developers onto C#. But, no joke, it's a BETTER experience than Android Studio. I had a much better time using Xamarin Studio (on OS X) and Visual Studio with Xamarin (on Windows) than I ever did with Android Studio. And not just because of the tools: C# provides so many great features that make Android development awesome on it. And the API is essentially the same as the true Android Java API; I found myself googling "start an activity on Android" rather than "Xamarin start an activity on Android" because it's all done the same way. I normally don't obsess about my code looking clean and beautiful, but when I wrote my simple app in C# it shorter and easier to read than when I did it in the Android Studio.

pjmlp 10y ago
I still don't understand how Microsoft was able to provide a better debugging and tooling experience for Android, than Google itself for their own OS, although Android Studio 2.2 finally seems to be usable.
- Delmania 10y ago
  > I still don't understand how Microsoft was able to provide a better debugging and tooling experience for Android, than Google itself for their own OS, although Android Studio 2.2 finally seems to be usable. Visual Studio was first released in 1997, the company has 20 years experience in designing and building tooling. I believe they also have a very firm dogfooding policy, and some very intelligent people work there. Google changed the search engine landscape and created the only competitor to the iPhone, but building tools and tooling is definitely not a key strength.
  - geldan 10y ago
    Except browser tooling, where they are far ahead of others.
    - 10y ago

2bitencryption 10y ago

It looks like the old way of "MAKE them use it by making ourselves the only option" has given way to "Make them WANT to use it because if we don't they'll just use something else." I am okay with this.