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I literally just started to go back and re-learn some of the core concepts for the latest version... wow is Swift ugly! EDIT: I'm not attempting to discredit t

I literally just started to go back and re-learn some of the core concepts for the latest version... wow is Swift ugly! EDIT: I'm not attempting to discredit the greatness that can be had... Just wanted to describe a feeling which I had while using it is all!

manmal 10y ago
It's a systems language, and imo way more beautiful than c++.
- superJimmy64 10y ago
  Absolutely. I'm not attempting to put it down as somehow not worthy of anyones time, just thought I'd mention how "cushioned" it all felt :P
  - manmal 10y ago
    What language do you prefer over Swift? I'm curious.
    - superJimmy64 10y ago
      I'm not sure I would choose something over the latest version, primarily because of how little a time investment using it can be... but then again it all comes down to what the task at hand is doesn't it ;P
    - snovv_crash 10y ago
      C++11 with review-enforced RAII. Boost if you need special stuff involving odd data structures. gtest/gmock. Depending on what you're doing, add some Qt5, OpenCV, OpenMP, RapidXML/RapidJSON, any C library ever written - and there are BSD/LGPL libraries for pretty much anything. Make plugins with Lua. Run tests in Valgrind.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- mpweiher 10y ago
  It's not really predictable enough for a systems language.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Can you predict what your C compiler with going to do with your code, taking into account UB and compiler specific implementation behaviors not specified by ANSI C?
    - mpweiher 10y ago
      More than with Swift. I routinely see 100x - 1000x and more performance difference between -O0 and -O in Swift. Considering that the optimiser doesn't give warnings or errors if it can't apply optimisations, that's out of bounds for me for a systems programming language. YMMV. The whole UB idiocy is a different matter, though related because it's perpetrated by roughly the same group of people, for similar nonsensical and non-validated reasons. See my post http://blog.metaobject.com/2014/04/cc-osmartass.html http://blog.metaobject.com/2014/04/cc-osmartass.html See also: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/kps2015/proceedings/KPS_2015_submission_29.pdf http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/kps2015/proceedings/KPS_201... and Proebsting's Law.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        > More than with Swift. I routinely see 100x - 1000x and more performance difference between -O0 and -O in Swift. Considering that the optimiser doesn't give warnings or errors if it can't apply optimisations, that's out of bounds for me for a systems programming language. YMMV. Improvements required for the toolchain in a young language, than Apple, IBM and others will certainly improve.
- themihai 10y ago
  Yeah but it can't replace C++. Swift was designed to make programming fun/nice not to replace C or C++.
  - superJimmy64 10y ago
    Agreed. Certainly if the dev has any regard for things like performance and security
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    "Swift is intended as a replacement for C-based languages (C, C++, and Objective-C). " Taken from https://swift.org/about/ https://swift.org/about/ "Swift is a successor to both the C and Objective-C languages." Taken from https://developer.apple.com/swift/ https://developer.apple.com/swift/
    - themihai 10y ago
      Swift can't do realtime. It has automatic memory management. How do you replace C or C++ with Swift for that? What they mean is that Swift replaces Objective-C on user facing apps(on Apple devices) but I doubt you will see the critical parts of the OS (kernel, drivers, etc) written in Swift. It's almost like saying javascript will replace C/C++. I want a nice language like Swift (or Go) to replace C but there is none. Rust was the best/latest failed attempt.
      - mikeash 10y ago
        You can essentially write C in Swift by using UnsafePointer and such. If you avoid using reference types then you won't get any automatic memory management. I don't think it's quite ready to replace C as a kernel or driver language, but it's not that far off.
        aaronbrager 10y ago
        This is especially true in Swift 3, which has many improvements around this type of programming.
ebbv 10y ago
I don't see how your second sentence follows from the first one? It's true that Swift is heavily type safe but that makes it appealing to me. I actually really enjoy writing Swift. Would you rather it were dynamic so you could write less code or something?
- superJimmy64 10y ago
  I should have specified that it wasnt an attempt to put down the language, as there are many, MANY caveats... only wanted to point out how writing it almost makes me feel unclean somehow hah

manmal 10y ago

It's a systems language, and imo way more beautiful than c++.

superJimmy64 10y ago
Absolutely. I'm not attempting to put it down as somehow not worthy of anyones time, just thought I'd mention how "cushioned" it all felt :P
- manmal 10y ago
  What language do you prefer over Swift? I'm curious.
  - superJimmy64 10y ago
    I'm not sure I would choose something over the latest version, primarily because of how little a time investment using it can be... but then again it all comes down to what the task at hand is doesn't it ;P
  - snovv_crash 10y ago
    C++11 with review-enforced RAII. Boost if you need special stuff involving odd data structures. gtest/gmock. Depending on what you're doing, add some Qt5, OpenCV, OpenMP, RapidXML/RapidJSON, any C library ever written - and there are BSD/LGPL libraries for pretty much anything. Make plugins with Lua. Run tests in Valgrind.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
mpweiher 10y ago
It's not really predictable enough for a systems language.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Can you predict what your C compiler with going to do with your code, taking into account UB and compiler specific implementation behaviors not specified by ANSI C?
  - mpweiher 10y ago
    More than with Swift. I routinely see 100x - 1000x and more performance difference between -O0 and -O in Swift. Considering that the optimiser doesn't give warnings or errors if it can't apply optimisations, that's out of bounds for me for a systems programming language. YMMV. The whole UB idiocy is a different matter, though related because it's perpetrated by roughly the same group of people, for similar nonsensical and non-validated reasons. See my post http://blog.metaobject.com/2014/04/cc-osmartass.html http://blog.metaobject.com/2014/04/cc-osmartass.html See also: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/kps2015/proceedings/KPS_2015_submission_29.pdf http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/kps2015/proceedings/KPS_201... and Proebsting's Law.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      > More than with Swift. I routinely see 100x - 1000x and more performance difference between -O0 and -O in Swift. Considering that the optimiser doesn't give warnings or errors if it can't apply optimisations, that's out of bounds for me for a systems programming language. YMMV. Improvements required for the toolchain in a young language, than Apple, IBM and others will certainly improve.
themihai 10y ago
Yeah but it can't replace C++. Swift was designed to make programming fun/nice not to replace C or C++.
- superJimmy64 10y ago
  Agreed. Certainly if the dev has any regard for things like performance and security
- pjmlp 10y ago
  "Swift is intended as a replacement for C-based languages (C, C++, and Objective-C). " Taken from https://swift.org/about/ https://swift.org/about/ "Swift is a successor to both the C and Objective-C languages." Taken from https://developer.apple.com/swift/ https://developer.apple.com/swift/
  - themihai 10y ago
    Swift can't do realtime. It has automatic memory management. How do you replace C or C++ with Swift for that? What they mean is that Swift replaces Objective-C on user facing apps(on Apple devices) but I doubt you will see the critical parts of the OS (kernel, drivers, etc) written in Swift. It's almost like saying javascript will replace C/C++. I want a nice language like Swift (or Go) to replace C but there is none. Rust was the best/latest failed attempt.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      You can essentially write C in Swift by using UnsafePointer and such. If you avoid using reference types then you won't get any automatic memory management. I don't think it's quite ready to replace C as a kernel or driver language, but it's not that far off.
      - aaronbrager 10y ago
        This is especially true in Swift 3, which has many improvements around this type of programming.

ebbv 10y ago

I don't see how your second sentence follows from the first one? It's true that Swift is heavily type safe but that makes it appealing to me. I actually really enjoy writing Swift. Would you rather it were dynamic so you could write less code or something?

superJimmy64 10y ago
I should have specified that it wasnt an attempt to put down the language, as there are many, MANY caveats... only wanted to point out how writing it almost makes me feel unclean somehow hah