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People are far removed from seeing the actual results of their decisions. Humans are also very good at self deception. Even if you sort of know your beef is bu

by qplex 10y ago

People are far removed from seeing the actual results of their decisions. Humans are also very good at self deception. Even if you sort of know your beef is butchered, it carries little meaning since you never have to see it happen. Same goes for Google stealing your data or Apple making pretty phones with slave labor. Basically pretty much everybody needs to be smacked hard with a stick now and then and told what kind of picture they are really painting.

icebraining 10y ago
Humans are also very good at self deception. Even if you sort of know your beef is butchered, it carries little meaning since you never have to see it happen. I never understood this argument vis-a-vis butchering, since it implies pastoral farmers are particularly immoral people, unlike "regular" people who would stop their behaviour if only they'd see the results. Is that really your view? In my opinion, the opposite is true: growing up ignorant of how it works is the only reason why they may be shocked when they find out. If it was a common sight, people would be OK with it just like most people growing up in farms are.
- boggydepot 10y ago
  In my opinion, if one knows that an action is not right and still do it, then one would be immoral - common sight or not. 'butchering' is probably a grey area whether it is right or wrong. But overuse of anti-biotics and bad farming conditions causing disastrous health issues in humans is easily wrong. edit: humans however are not perfect moral beings, I for example am super tempted to grab a slice of free pizza (which contains lots of butchered suffering animal products) here in the office. but in righting my comment here, I find some strength in fighting temptation.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  I've always been conflicted on the "don't know how it's made" argument. On one hand, I've known people who learned about farming practices and butchery and were horrified (but most went back to meat after a brief stretch of dissonance). On the other hand, I grew up knowing what butchering an animal involves. It never turned me (or a lot of other people) off of eating those animals. I think you're right - it's not that ignorance is required, just that the moment of discovery is a bit shocking.
- qplex 10y ago
  The argument does not imply that killing animals for food is wrong, but that it is wrong to disconnect people from that reality and expect them to make moral decisions.
vixen99 10y ago
You're right about self deception but this is a tricky subject. Would you consider worldwide milk production and its products on the same level as your two examples with Google and Apple? Difficult to see how you can get milk without having to handle the question of what to do with male calves. As to butchering, we can know about it and if the 'how' is unacceptable (often is) then we can ensure the law is applied and modified when better solutions are found. Some kind of public access to slaughter houses should be encouraged and people should indeed be acquainted with the raw facts while ensuring they are able to appreciate the consequences of decisions which may be merely emotive feelings decoupled from fact. Both are needed!

by qplex 10y ago

icebraining 10y ago

Humans are also very good at self deception. Even if you sort of know your beef is butchered, it carries little meaning since you never have to see it happen. I never understood this argument vis-a-vis butchering, since it implies pastoral farmers are particularly immoral people, unlike "regular" people who would stop their behaviour if only they'd see the results. Is that really your view? In my opinion, the opposite is true: growing up ignorant of how it works is the only reason why they may be shocked when they find out. If it was a common sight, people would be OK with it just like most people growing up in farms are.

boggydepot 10y ago
In my opinion, if one knows that an action is not right and still do it, then one would be immoral - common sight or not. 'butchering' is probably a grey area whether it is right or wrong. But overuse of anti-biotics and bad farming conditions causing disastrous health issues in humans is easily wrong. edit: humans however are not perfect moral beings, I for example am super tempted to grab a slice of free pizza (which contains lots of butchered suffering animal products) here in the office. but in righting my comment here, I find some strength in fighting temptation.
Bartweiss 10y ago
I've always been conflicted on the "don't know how it's made" argument. On one hand, I've known people who learned about farming practices and butchery and were horrified (but most went back to meat after a brief stretch of dissonance). On the other hand, I grew up knowing what butchering an animal involves. It never turned me (or a lot of other people) off of eating those animals. I think you're right - it's not that ignorance is required, just that the moment of discovery is a bit shocking.
qplex 10y ago
The argument does not imply that killing animals for food is wrong, but that it is wrong to disconnect people from that reality and expect them to make moral decisions.

vixen99 10y ago

You're right about self deception but this is a tricky subject. Would you consider worldwide milk production and its products on the same level as your two examples with Google and Apple? Difficult to see how you can get milk without having to handle the question of what to do with male calves. As to butchering, we can know about it and if the 'how' is unacceptable (often is) then we can ensure the law is applied and modified when better solutions are found. Some kind of public access to slaughter houses should be encouraged and people should indeed be acquainted with the raw facts while ensuring they are able to appreciate the consequences of decisions which may be merely emotive feelings decoupled from fact. Both are needed!