9 ms·

>>And the failure mode either sounds dramatic (like a jet engine coming apart in the spin cycle) and/or the machine starts putting brown grease onto the clothes

by tmptmp 10y ago

>>And the failure mode either sounds dramatic (like a jet engine coming apart in the spin cycle) and/or the machine starts putting brown grease onto the clothes, making people believe the problem is not a simple one. Great insight. I wonder how far we (as in general society) have come from the science/technology aspects of our day to day life. Even repairing simple machines like a washing machine is almost beyond the ability of most people even with the availability of all tools needed. I conjecture that despite the availability of information, the percentage of people with hacker-mindset is declining. Companies are to blame for this (obfuscation etc), no doubt, but societal culture also seems to play a very important role here. The society doesn't seem to value such knowledge anymore much. Am I missing something?

sokoloff 10y ago
The availability of tools is far from a given as well. It appalls me how few people will tackle what seem to me to be utterly basic repair tasks. I may be on the extreme end, but I think some people would pay someone to change a lightbulb in their house (and I'm sure a great many DO pay someone to replace a headlamp or tail light bulbs). I'm trying to do my part, ensuring that my kids are exposed to the DIY/maker/hacker ethic/experience, and even went into to teach my daughter's kindergarten class the (very) basics of electricity and we "built" flashlights together (mostly, the kids did a life-scale real "electricity" game with banana jack cables to make a complete circuit and a light to light from a 12V battery and then they put stickers with their name on it around the batteries of pre-built flashlights with a bare wire to the negative terminal as the "switch".) That was 2 years ago, and the kids still talk about it sometimes when I see them at pickup. My son (3 at the time, 5 now) can explain from that how a switch works and that electricity "has to make a whole circle" in order to work. This was the prototype version we made at home. The production version was more robust and looked better, but worked the same basic way. http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashlight1.jpg http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashl... http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashlight3.jpg http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashl... http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashlight2.jpg http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashl...
- to3m 10y ago
  How to change a light bulb on a Renault Megane: http://www.meganeownersclub.co.uk/changingmeganebulb.php http://www.meganeownersclub.co.uk/changingmeganebulb.php
  - sokoloff 10y ago
    There are Audis where you need to remove the front bumper to change the headlamp. (Less of a concern with HID and LEDs, but some of them are still halogen.)
    - gvurrdon 10y ago
      I had one of those, at least according to the repair manual. In that case I found that the local garage were able to change the bulb without dismantling anything by putting the car over their inspection pit and reaching up through a narrow gap between the engine and headlight (having small hands helped here). This was only 5 minutes' work for them and so the charge was very low, and it was easier for me to pay that than to attempt to jack the car up on my driveway and crawl under.
- userbinator 10y ago
  What really appalls me is that in some parts of the world, it is likely there are people who would seriously be scared upon seeing something like that, with thoughts of "is that a bomb?" On the other hand, you can still find pockets of the DIY ethic in many places. A while ago I remember watching on YouTube an automatic transmission being rebuilt, and two rather young (around 8-10) kids were helping their father with it. That was cute and inspiring.
- logfromblammo 10y ago
  Tools? There is a minimal set of tools that will cover a very large number of common household and automobile repairs. I have had a great track record with nothing but a pair of vice-grips and a 4-bit combination screwdriver (2x flathead, 2x Phillips). Add to that a claw hammer, pocketknife, roll of duct tape, can of WD-40, toilet plunger, needle-nosed pliers, and a few cheap plastic-coated wire coat hangers, and you should be able to bodge or jury-rig anything long enough to get a real repair done over the weekend. For instance, did you know that one arm of the tweezers in a Victorinox pocketknife can tighten eyeglasses screws?
sametmax 10y ago
I always has been. Even 30 years ago most people didn't know how to fix those machines. People fixing cars or plumbery have been popularized by TV and books, but really they were a minority, for the simple reason learning a skill takes time. And most people invest their time in only a limited set of things.
- sokoloff 10y ago
  I think there was a lot of DIY in the post-Depression, wartime, and immediately post-war economy. Could be just my family experience, but both sets of my grandparents had a very strong "use it up, wear it out, make it do" philosophy and that included fixing/bodging when appropriate.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > Even 30 years ago most people didn't know how to fix those machines. True, people would use washing machine repair shops. Today you can't do that because the machines have been designed to not be repairable. They come with sealed tubs. People can replace the tubs, but that's a lot more expensive than replacing just the bearings.
- Retric 10y ago
  Over half the 70 year old guys I know can repair 1960's era cars. First they where relatively simple, second they broke down often. If you made a lot of money then pay someone else, otherwise you where on the sliding scale. Basically it was like PC repair before laptops. Even if you did not know how to do it working from a good book you would muddle through it.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Even if you didn't know how to fix that car or washing machine, there was a good chance someone in or close to your family - your uncle, your son's girlfriend, etc. - could do that for you. Many of such people started repair shops that could fix pretty much any device of a given category. This secondary repair market is what's disappearing thanks to stuff being less serviceable and more disposable.
yodsanklai 10y ago
It's not only a matter of ability, but also of opportunity cost. For instance, when I was a teenager, I always fixed my bicycle by myself. Nowadays, I guess I could do it if I had too, but I prefer to pay $50 and have somebody else do it for me. Same goes for washing machines or similar appliance, I'm sure many people could manage to fix them by themselves by spending enough time, but is it worth it?
- Teever 10y ago
  I agree but I think it is worth considering what the opportunity cost of letting those skills atrophy. Can you still fix your bicycle? Like if you had no money or were stuck somewhere distant could you still do it? Is it just because you're older now and have income that you pay someone to do it or is it something society in general does? Do children's parents just get someone to fix their bike or throw it away and get a new one? What does it cost us as a society when a generation loses those skills?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - tmptmp 10y ago
    >>What does it cost us as a society when a generation loses those skills? This. This is a lot to do with today's society. We don't seem to appreciate the problem at all. People just think that they can throw some money at someone and get the things repaired and so they don't need to learn anything. Society as a whole may have to bear a huge cost, and by the time they realize this they might have already lost their time. Manufacturers are a lot to blame but today's lifestyle of "it's just a matter of few bucks, so why waster time?" is also to blame.
- soneil 10y ago
  I think there's some kind of sliding scale that needs to be teased out. eg, for your bicycle example; if I cycle an hour from home, then have a puncture; I'd rather be able to swap a tube out myself, than walk it home. Even if I can call someone out to me, I can probably do it myself in the time it'd take them to arrive. Once you can admit there's some level you'd rather be able to do yourself, all you need to do is keep stretching that envelope little by little.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
It isn't always so simple. Money and lifestyle often plays a role in what folks can and can't do. >... even with the availability of all the tools needed. This is often a first problem, actually. I've had a few times in my life where I've been completely without handtools. Upon first moving out, for example, upon moving out again: After splitting with my ex, and moving to to a new country. So if I would sit here and start looking at a washing machine that is broken, I have to buy parts, hope it is user-serviceable, plus make sure I have the handtools or buy them. Afterwards, I know there is a bit of risk that I've repaired this badly or that the source for the instructions were wrong. In addition, if I had to replace a large part, I also have to deal with disposal (not all places will take large items often). If I'm limited on money, there are generally other choices. A used washer from a dealer or a new, bottom-of-the-line washer on clearance or something sometimes runs the same money - plus I get some sort of promise it'll work or be replaced. It might be possible to repair it if there is a repairman in the area, but I'm gonna balance that out with the cost of the other options. In addition, with something like a washing machine, I have to figure out if I can wait 2-3 weeks on a part. Do I have time to go to the laundry place? Can I afford both the part and to pay to do laundry? Can I do it over at a friends house for a few weeks? If this doesn't fix the machine, can I afford to try again with a another part? (this last statement is often a sore point when folks are fixing their own vehicles). And this is assuming someone is mechanically inclined enough to do it or try it, if they think it is a reasonable risk (don't want the washer catching fire) and other things I'm sure I'm missing.
- sokoloff 10y ago
  > If this doesn't fix the machine, can I afford to try again with a another part? (this last statement is often a sore point when folks are fixing their own vehicles). Spot on! I can't even remember how many times I had to bike or bum a ride to a parts store midway through a repair.

by tmptmp 10y ago

sokoloff 10y ago

The availability of tools is far from a given as well. It appalls me how few people will tackle what seem to me to be utterly basic repair tasks. I may be on the extreme end, but I think some people would pay someone to change a lightbulb in their house (and I'm sure a great many DO pay someone to replace a headlamp or tail light bulbs). I'm trying to do my part, ensuring that my kids are exposed to the DIY/maker/hacker ethic/experience, and even went into to teach my daughter's kindergarten class the (very) basics of electricity and we "built" flashlights together (mostly, the kids did a life-scale real "electricity" game with banana jack cables to make a complete circuit and a light to light from a 12V battery and then they put stickers with their name on it around the batteries of pre-built flashlights with a bare wire to the negative terminal as the "switch".) That was 2 years ago, and the kids still talk about it sometimes when I see them at pickup. My son (3 at the time, 5 now) can explain from that how a switch works and that electricity "has to make a whole circle" in order to work. This was the prototype version we made at home. The production version was more robust and looked better, but worked the same basic way. http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashlight1.jpg http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashl... http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashlight3.jpg http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashl... http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashlight2.jpg http://static-s3.sokoloff.com/random/kids/flashlights/flashl...

to3m 10y ago
How to change a light bulb on a Renault Megane: http://www.meganeownersclub.co.uk/changingmeganebulb.php http://www.meganeownersclub.co.uk/changingmeganebulb.php
- sokoloff 10y ago
  There are Audis where you need to remove the front bumper to change the headlamp. (Less of a concern with HID and LEDs, but some of them are still halogen.)
  - gvurrdon 10y ago
    I had one of those, at least according to the repair manual. In that case I found that the local garage were able to change the bulb without dismantling anything by putting the car over their inspection pit and reaching up through a narrow gap between the engine and headlight (having small hands helped here). This was only 5 minutes' work for them and so the charge was very low, and it was easier for me to pay that than to attempt to jack the car up on my driveway and crawl under.
userbinator 10y ago
What really appalls me is that in some parts of the world, it is likely there are people who would seriously be scared upon seeing something like that, with thoughts of "is that a bomb?" On the other hand, you can still find pockets of the DIY ethic in many places. A while ago I remember watching on YouTube an automatic transmission being rebuilt, and two rather young (around 8-10) kids were helping their father with it. That was cute and inspiring.
logfromblammo 10y ago
Tools? There is a minimal set of tools that will cover a very large number of common household and automobile repairs. I have had a great track record with nothing but a pair of vice-grips and a 4-bit combination screwdriver (2x flathead, 2x Phillips). Add to that a claw hammer, pocketknife, roll of duct tape, can of WD-40, toilet plunger, needle-nosed pliers, and a few cheap plastic-coated wire coat hangers, and you should be able to bodge or jury-rig anything long enough to get a real repair done over the weekend. For instance, did you know that one arm of the tweezers in a Victorinox pocketknife can tighten eyeglasses screws?

sametmax 10y ago

I always has been. Even 30 years ago most people didn't know how to fix those machines. People fixing cars or plumbery have been popularized by TV and books, but really they were a minority, for the simple reason learning a skill takes time. And most people invest their time in only a limited set of things.

sokoloff 10y ago
I think there was a lot of DIY in the post-Depression, wartime, and immediately post-war economy. Could be just my family experience, but both sets of my grandparents had a very strong "use it up, wear it out, make it do" philosophy and that included fixing/bodging when appropriate.
DanBC 10y ago
> Even 30 years ago most people didn't know how to fix those machines. True, people would use washing machine repair shops. Today you can't do that because the machines have been designed to not be repairable. They come with sealed tubs. People can replace the tubs, but that's a lot more expensive than replacing just the bearings.
Retric 10y ago
Over half the 70 year old guys I know can repair 1960's era cars. First they where relatively simple, second they broke down often. If you made a lot of money then pay someone else, otherwise you where on the sliding scale. Basically it was like PC repair before laptops. Even if you did not know how to do it working from a good book you would muddle through it.
TeMPOraL 10y ago
Even if you didn't know how to fix that car or washing machine, there was a good chance someone in or close to your family - your uncle, your son's girlfriend, etc. - could do that for you. Many of such people started repair shops that could fix pretty much any device of a given category. This secondary repair market is what's disappearing thanks to stuff being less serviceable and more disposable.

yodsanklai 10y ago

It's not only a matter of ability, but also of opportunity cost. For instance, when I was a teenager, I always fixed my bicycle by myself. Nowadays, I guess I could do it if I had too, but I prefer to pay $50 and have somebody else do it for me. Same goes for washing machines or similar appliance, I'm sure many people could manage to fix them by themselves by spending enough time, but is it worth it?

Teever 10y ago
I agree but I think it is worth considering what the opportunity cost of letting those skills atrophy. Can you still fix your bicycle? Like if you had no money or were stuck somewhere distant could you still do it? Is it just because you're older now and have income that you pay someone to do it or is it something society in general does? Do children's parents just get someone to fix their bike or throw it away and get a new one? What does it cost us as a society when a generation loses those skills?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- tmptmp 10y ago
  >>What does it cost us as a society when a generation loses those skills? This. This is a lot to do with today's society. We don't seem to appreciate the problem at all. People just think that they can throw some money at someone and get the things repaired and so they don't need to learn anything. Society as a whole may have to bear a huge cost, and by the time they realize this they might have already lost their time. Manufacturers are a lot to blame but today's lifestyle of "it's just a matter of few bucks, so why waster time?" is also to blame.
soneil 10y ago
I think there's some kind of sliding scale that needs to be teased out. eg, for your bicycle example; if I cycle an hour from home, then have a puncture; I'd rather be able to swap a tube out myself, than walk it home. Even if I can call someone out to me, I can probably do it myself in the time it'd take them to arrive. Once you can admit there's some level you'd rather be able to do yourself, all you need to do is keep stretching that envelope little by little.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

It isn't always so simple. Money and lifestyle often plays a role in what folks can and can't do. >... even with the availability of all the tools needed. This is often a first problem, actually. I've had a few times in my life where I've been completely without handtools. Upon first moving out, for example, upon moving out again: After splitting with my ex, and moving to to a new country. So if I would sit here and start looking at a washing machine that is broken, I have to buy parts, hope it is user-serviceable, plus make sure I have the handtools or buy them. Afterwards, I know there is a bit of risk that I've repaired this badly or that the source for the instructions were wrong. In addition, if I had to replace a large part, I also have to deal with disposal (not all places will take large items often). If I'm limited on money, there are generally other choices. A used washer from a dealer or a new, bottom-of-the-line washer on clearance or something sometimes runs the same money - plus I get some sort of promise it'll work or be replaced. It might be possible to repair it if there is a repairman in the area, but I'm gonna balance that out with the cost of the other options. In addition, with something like a washing machine, I have to figure out if I can wait 2-3 weeks on a part. Do I have time to go to the laundry place? Can I afford both the part and to pay to do laundry? Can I do it over at a friends house for a few weeks? If this doesn't fix the machine, can I afford to try again with a another part? (this last statement is often a sore point when folks are fixing their own vehicles). And this is assuming someone is mechanically inclined enough to do it or try it, if they think it is a reasonable risk (don't want the washer catching fire) and other things I'm sure I'm missing.

sokoloff 10y ago
> If this doesn't fix the machine, can I afford to try again with a another part? (this last statement is often a sore point when folks are fixing their own vehicles). Spot on! I can't even remember how many times I had to bike or bum a ride to a parts store midway through a repair.