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Of course I'm not blaming Google or Cloudflare, but it is kind of sad that larger and larger part of the Internet is moving behind their networks. I don't think

Of course I'm not blaming Google or Cloudflare, but it is kind of sad that larger and larger part of the Internet is moving behind their networks. I don't think this kind of centralization is good for the Internet.

willvarfar 10y ago
The ease at which sites can be DDOSed to oblivion is "why we can't have nice things"? :(
drinchev 10y ago
I don't think this is some sort of centralization. In the end you always end up with some sort of a cable or router between you and the website that you want to visit. And these companies provide you with protection of that cable / router. This opens more doors than the ones that it closes. And sure, you can just detach from CloudFlare and own your traffic, but overall the benefits of using their service are more than the downsides.
forthefuture 10y ago
Pretty sure way more sites are centralized on AWS behind a GUI so unintuitive companies pay Amazon to do it for them.
cleeus 10y ago
It's the feudalism age of the internet. Everyone needs a lord for protection.
- afsina 10y ago
  Better than nation states.
  - Tepix 10y ago
    Only sometimes.
  - nl 10y ago
    That's interesting, in the context of a quote from the KerbsOnSecurity piece which prompted this post: John Gilmore, an American entrepreneur and civil libertarian, once famously quipped that “the Internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.” This notion undoubtedly rings true for those who see national governments as the principal threats to free speech. However, events of the past week have convinced me that one of the fastest-growing censorship threats on the Internet today comes not from nation-states, but from super-empowered individuals who have been quietly building extremely potent cyber weapons with transnational reach.[1] and also: But as my friend and mentor Roland Dobbins at Arbor Networks eloquently put it, “When it comes to DDoS attacks, nation-states are just another player.” [1] https://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/09/the-democratization-of-censorship/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/09/the-democratization-of-c...
    - afsina 10y ago
      At the end, if nation states are helpless on preventing this, and only being part of the problem, I say this - our benevolent feodal overlords - is the preferable solution.
      - kyledrake 10y ago
        That's what the "benevolent feudal overlords" want everyone to think. From all the defeatist DDoS comments I'd say they're doing a good job at it. As Brian Krebs, myself and numerous other people have pointed out, Cloudflare could end almost all of the DDoS-for-hire attacks in an hour if they actually wanted to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12577289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12577289
        rudolf0 10y ago
        Sadly, not really true. * Cloudflare has a growing number of competitors, like Incapsula. * These services only protect the front-end of the booter websites. These are barebones CRUD apps for managing accounts and typing the IPs you want DDoS'd. It'd be pretty easy to throw that template up on any other server or domain. Most of that whole workflow could be replaced by IRC, Slack, Discord, Skype along with Bitcoin or similar payment methods. As proof, booter sites do still regularly get DDoS'd (usually by exposing their origin server IP or otherwise fucking up configuration) and breached (often exposing the entire user DB and source code) yet pop back up within a few days and still retain most of their customer base. * They could just move everything to a Tor hidden service, or the equivalent to I2P. It's the botnet and/or list of IPs and URLs (scripts and shells on compromised servers they planted or paid for access to) that serves the foundation of booter services. If that remains untouched, then the booter can stick around indefinitely. Cloudflare's CEO reiterates the same points here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12577690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12577690 As for whether they have a moral obligation to stop reverse proxying these sites... I think he makes a pretty good argument for why they should be considered a common carrier. They do forward all abuse reports to the respective hosting providers.
  - arviewer 10y ago
    Depends on where you live and who you love.
- MichaelMoser123 10y ago
  >It's the feudalism age of the internet. Everyone needs a lord for protection. i think Schneier likes this analogy, he has used it before: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/12/feudal_sec.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/12/feudal_sec.ht... He then calls for the state and the law to protect us from our overlords; now that was all written before Snowden (the presnowdonian period) Still nice that google does this hosting + ddos protection work; they could have chosen not to do it.
- rudolf0 10y ago
  The problem is that governments services and organized police and military are effectives solution to many of the problems faced in medieval times. It's fairly easy to evade attribution, let alone apprehension, if you're a ne'er-do-weller with a broadband connection. You have no option left but to hide inside rich people's castles.
dharma1 10y ago
another option is to host your blog on a decentralised network like IPFS. Though a massive DDoS would annoy people who use it, it's unlikely it would bring it down. Better security models for internet connected devices is ultimately needed so people can't build these kind of botnets in the first place.

willvarfar 10y ago

The ease at which sites can be DDOSed to oblivion is "why we can't have nice things"? :(

drinchev 10y ago

I don't think this is some sort of centralization. In the end you always end up with some sort of a cable or router between you and the website that you want to visit. And these companies provide you with protection of that cable / router. This opens more doors than the ones that it closes. And sure, you can just detach from CloudFlare and own your traffic, but overall the benefits of using their service are more than the downsides.

forthefuture 10y ago

Pretty sure way more sites are centralized on AWS behind a GUI so unintuitive companies pay Amazon to do it for them.

cleeus 10y ago

It's the feudalism age of the internet. Everyone needs a lord for protection.

afsina 10y ago
Better than nation states.
- Tepix 10y ago
  Only sometimes.
- nl 10y ago
  That's interesting, in the context of a quote from the KerbsOnSecurity piece which prompted this post: John Gilmore, an American entrepreneur and civil libertarian, once famously quipped that “the Internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.” This notion undoubtedly rings true for those who see national governments as the principal threats to free speech. However, events of the past week have convinced me that one of the fastest-growing censorship threats on the Internet today comes not from nation-states, but from super-empowered individuals who have been quietly building extremely potent cyber weapons with transnational reach.[1] and also: But as my friend and mentor Roland Dobbins at Arbor Networks eloquently put it, “When it comes to DDoS attacks, nation-states are just another player.” [1] https://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/09/the-democratization-of-censorship/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/09/the-democratization-of-c...
  - afsina 10y ago
    At the end, if nation states are helpless on preventing this, and only being part of the problem, I say this - our benevolent feodal overlords - is the preferable solution.
    - kyledrake 10y ago
      That's what the "benevolent feudal overlords" want everyone to think. From all the defeatist DDoS comments I'd say they're doing a good job at it. As Brian Krebs, myself and numerous other people have pointed out, Cloudflare could end almost all of the DDoS-for-hire attacks in an hour if they actually wanted to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12577289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12577289
      - rudolf0 10y ago
        Sadly, not really true. * Cloudflare has a growing number of competitors, like Incapsula. * These services only protect the front-end of the booter websites. These are barebones CRUD apps for managing accounts and typing the IPs you want DDoS'd. It'd be pretty easy to throw that template up on any other server or domain. Most of that whole workflow could be replaced by IRC, Slack, Discord, Skype along with Bitcoin or similar payment methods. As proof, booter sites do still regularly get DDoS'd (usually by exposing their origin server IP or otherwise fucking up configuration) and breached (often exposing the entire user DB and source code) yet pop back up within a few days and still retain most of their customer base. * They could just move everything to a Tor hidden service, or the equivalent to I2P. It's the botnet and/or list of IPs and URLs (scripts and shells on compromised servers they planted or paid for access to) that serves the foundation of booter services. If that remains untouched, then the booter can stick around indefinitely. Cloudflare's CEO reiterates the same points here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12577690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12577690 As for whether they have a moral obligation to stop reverse proxying these sites... I think he makes a pretty good argument for why they should be considered a common carrier. They do forward all abuse reports to the respective hosting providers.
- arviewer 10y ago
  Depends on where you live and who you love.
MichaelMoser123 10y ago
>It's the feudalism age of the internet. Everyone needs a lord for protection. i think Schneier likes this analogy, he has used it before: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/12/feudal_sec.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/12/feudal_sec.ht... He then calls for the state and the law to protect us from our overlords; now that was all written before Snowden (the presnowdonian period) Still nice that google does this hosting + ddos protection work; they could have chosen not to do it.
rudolf0 10y ago
The problem is that governments services and organized police and military are effectives solution to many of the problems faced in medieval times. It's fairly easy to evade attribution, let alone apprehension, if you're a ne'er-do-weller with a broadband connection. You have no option left but to hide inside rich people's castles.

dharma1 10y ago

another option is to host your blog on a decentralised network like IPFS. Though a massive DDoS would annoy people who use it, it's unlikely it would bring it down. Better security models for internet connected devices is ultimately needed so people can't build these kind of botnets in the first place.