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"I find it at odds that a nation that has such ardour and pride for their servicemen and servicewomen would basically condone human rights abuse by and unto tho

by criley2 10y ago

"I find it at odds that a nation that has such ardour and pride for their servicemen and servicewomen would basically condone human rights abuse by and unto those same personnel ?!" So, you're new to jingoistic nationalism is what you're telling me. Cool, welcome to the 19th century. You have about 200 years of history to catch up on! I'm guessing you've just learned about Napoleon's army based on your opinion, so hoy-boy do you have a wide variety of nationalist nations and their armies to study!

cyberferret 10y ago
True in part. My nation's army (Australia) has a history that goes back to those times, and still has traditions and culture carried forward from that era. But while we do hold our service personnel in high esteem and treat them with respect, we also hold them accountable and try very hard to stamp out incidences of human rights abuse, gender inequality, bullying etc. within our defence force. We tend not to let patriotic fervour limit that accountability.
- ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
  Scandals and abuse happen in all militaries, even modern Western ones (that aren't American). Don't kid yourself that Australia is immune.
  - cyberferret 10y ago
    Oh, I know we are absolutely not immune. This sort of thing is endemic in any large, hierarchical group. We are just less likely to let hero worship cloud our judgement.
- brownbat 10y ago
  > try very hard to stamp out incidences of human rights abuse Except on Nauru? http://kvpr.org/post/save-children-ex-employee-leaks-details-about-refugee-abuse-nauru http://kvpr.org/post/save-children-ex-employee-leaks-details...
  - cyberferret 10y ago
    The situation in Nauru is absolutely abhorrent, but discussing it is outside the scope of this post. It isn't the Australian military there... The situation is controlled by a private security firm under the employ of the Australian Government.
    - brownbat 10y ago
      The private security firm didn't create the policy of mandatory indefinite remote detention with little oversight. And while it may be cognitively useful to pretend Australian border defense is not a military issue, you have created a ranked force defending the state's "territorial integrity" through the use of force. You originally wrote, "I find it at odds that a nation that has such ardour and pride for their servicemen and servicewomen would basically condone human rights abuse by and unto those same personnel." The UN has repeatedly decried Austrlia's migration policies as human rights abuses. The reason migration policies are germane, even if they're enforced by civilians, is because they're an example where Australians exhibit the same blind spots you're decrying in people from other countries. If you're genuinely curious how people take pride in flawed governments, look closer to home. Really though, it's a universal human condition.
- toomanybeersies 10y ago
  The Australian Defence Force isn't exactly all peachy either. Australian servicemen and servicewomen are still subject to military law and courts martial, same as the USA. And sexual abuse and harassment is still a serious issue [0]. [0] http://www.news.com.au/news/australian-navy-faces-male-sex-competition-scandal/story-fna7dq6e-1225745988945 http://www.news.com.au/news/australian-navy-faces-male-sex-c...
  - cyberferret 10y ago
    Never said that is was all roses in our defence force. Ironically my sister in law (in the Air Force) is undergoing a formal complaint review at the moment because she is the subject of systemic bullying and cronyism in her section. But in her case (and in most others here), outside agencies will step up to the plate and ask serious questions and take charge of the situation if defence force personnel are seen to be unbecoming of their conduct. Do the most senior generals in the US military draw the line in the sand like David Morrison did a couple of years back? [1] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqpoeVgr8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqpoeVgr8U

by criley2 10y ago

cyberferret 10y ago

True in part. My nation's army (Australia) has a history that goes back to those times, and still has traditions and culture carried forward from that era. But while we do hold our service personnel in high esteem and treat them with respect, we also hold them accountable and try very hard to stamp out incidences of human rights abuse, gender inequality, bullying etc. within our defence force. We tend not to let patriotic fervour limit that accountability.

ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
Scandals and abuse happen in all militaries, even modern Western ones (that aren't American). Don't kid yourself that Australia is immune.
- cyberferret 10y ago
  Oh, I know we are absolutely not immune. This sort of thing is endemic in any large, hierarchical group. We are just less likely to let hero worship cloud our judgement.
brownbat 10y ago
> try very hard to stamp out incidences of human rights abuse Except on Nauru? http://kvpr.org/post/save-children-ex-employee-leaks-details-about-refugee-abuse-nauru http://kvpr.org/post/save-children-ex-employee-leaks-details...
- cyberferret 10y ago
  The situation in Nauru is absolutely abhorrent, but discussing it is outside the scope of this post. It isn't the Australian military there... The situation is controlled by a private security firm under the employ of the Australian Government.
  - brownbat 10y ago
    The private security firm didn't create the policy of mandatory indefinite remote detention with little oversight. And while it may be cognitively useful to pretend Australian border defense is not a military issue, you have created a ranked force defending the state's "territorial integrity" through the use of force. You originally wrote, "I find it at odds that a nation that has such ardour and pride for their servicemen and servicewomen would basically condone human rights abuse by and unto those same personnel." The UN has repeatedly decried Austrlia's migration policies as human rights abuses. The reason migration policies are germane, even if they're enforced by civilians, is because they're an example where Australians exhibit the same blind spots you're decrying in people from other countries. If you're genuinely curious how people take pride in flawed governments, look closer to home. Really though, it's a universal human condition.
toomanybeersies 10y ago
The Australian Defence Force isn't exactly all peachy either. Australian servicemen and servicewomen are still subject to military law and courts martial, same as the USA. And sexual abuse and harassment is still a serious issue [0]. [0] http://www.news.com.au/news/australian-navy-faces-male-sex-competition-scandal/story-fna7dq6e-1225745988945 http://www.news.com.au/news/australian-navy-faces-male-sex-c...
- cyberferret 10y ago
  Never said that is was all roses in our defence force. Ironically my sister in law (in the Air Force) is undergoing a formal complaint review at the moment because she is the subject of systemic bullying and cronyism in her section. But in her case (and in most others here), outside agencies will step up to the plate and ask serious questions and take charge of the situation if defence force personnel are seen to be unbecoming of their conduct. Do the most senior generals in the US military draw the line in the sand like David Morrison did a couple of years back? [1] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqpoeVgr8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqpoeVgr8U