4 ms·

Why does everybody keep saying that diversity is a good thing? I'm not arguing it's a bad thing.. but why is it a bad thing? The most notable thing I see in d

Why does everybody keep saying that diversity is a good thing? I'm not arguing it's a bad thing.. but why is it a bad thing? The most notable thing I see in diversity are additional language and cultural barriers that will slow down productivity.

ohjeez 10y ago
Monocultures, almost by definition, encourage groups to think alike. That means the group doesn't invent anything new, and has a strong tendency to work towards the lowest denominator. While that's sometimes valuable -- not everything needs to be revolutionary -- it does mean that true innovation is harder to achieve, because nobody is thinking outside the box. In fact, most of the team isn't even aware of the box. Step back from the color- and gender-counting varieties of diversity for a moment, and just think of the notion of diversity itself: a variation of backgrounds and viewpoints, which can contribute to a wider view and, when done mindfully, more opportunities to serve the community (the same community that buys your products). Surely you've had that wonderful feeling when a teammate comes up with an idea, and you respond, "Wow, what a great suggestion! I'd never have thought of that!" With attention to diversity (by which I mean, "attracting people of different viewpoints"), you encounter that sense of discovery far more often.
- rimantas 10y ago
  A number of things onventef ny monocultures contradict your theory.
  - gaius 10y ago
    But were those truly monocultures? "Diversity" as practiced in the modern sense doesn't account for age, but it wasn't always so: once upon a time experience was valued... That's a key piece that's missing from all these discussions.
- markonthewall 10y ago
  Except the diversity quotas, or EEOs as they call it now, almost never allow for truly norm-bending individuals to access those roles. Having a different skin colour does not make or break group thinking. It's a mirage, at best, and a sad state of affairs for racial perception at worst. That trendy cult of diversity is only contributing to kick-start racial consciousness among white people and that fragmented society is going to blow-up in your face, down the road.
  - ohjeez 10y ago
    FWIW I agree with you. Anything forced on a group is apt to be resented by its members, including the "token whatever" who feels that she has to represent "her kind" instead of winning or failing on her own merits. Instead, groups benefit when they themselves work to expand their own membership. It's _really_ easy for all of us to look for people who share our outlooks and opinions, a "mini me" in some way. But we grow only when we insert new ideas. I've been exceedingly lucky, in that I've worked with diverse groups of all sorts. They include people from varied backgrounds (rural vs city, money vs poor, race, gender), and in every instance I can think of a time when that "differentness" caused us to think of a better and different answer. For a lame example, someone who grew up in a rural area is more likely to think about how an online application works in a region with lousy connectivity. It's not that other team members can't think of such things, but the background ensure someone does.
- ManlyBread 10y ago
  >Monocultures, almost by definition, encourage groups to think alike. Why is that bad? The barriers in regards to language, religion, customs are close to non-existent and the possibilities of conflicts over gender/race dynamics are greatly lessened. The time that would otherwise be wasted on sorting out these differences can be used to perform actual work. >That means the group doesn't invent anything new Really?
- ue_ 10y ago
  Diversity in viewpoints, which I agree is important, does not arise from diversity in race or gender. The celebration of diversity in race or gender seems to be just for the sake of diversity. I don't know how you would select for diversity in viewpoints when hiring. But I do know that selecting for diversity in race or gender isn't a way to get there.
com2kid 10y ago
I make software for everyone, not just white males. Why? Well, consider if nothing else, that white males are not a majority of the world population! There is a lot of money being left on the table! As an example, let's say you are productizing a consumer UV monitor. For the American market, you sell it to 20 something white men in Cali as a way to work on their tan. Hey, maybe you succeed! But you are a fraction of the size you should be. If that team had a parent on it, he or she would ask about using it for babies. A woman from the south east part of Asia may ask about develop it for use in avoiding UV exposure! A completely opposite use case from the target audience! As I said, if you consider nothing else, money left on the table.
- markonthewall 10y ago
  I am left speechless before this comment. I cannot believe some people here unironically believe that because they hired someone with a particular skin colour or heritage this will translate in better software for their end-users. You do realise that worshipping diversity is symmetrically as non-sensical as starting a cult for homogeneity? Your assumption that an unlabelled individuals cannot work on a product whose target market isn't them is crazy. >I make software for everyone, not just white males. Why? Well, consider if nothing else, that white males are not a majority of the world population! There is a lot of money being left on the table! By your own logic you should mostly hire europeans because, well the EU is the single largest market of high purchasing power individuals. Do you see yourself saying to a capable latinx engineer: "Nope, sorry, your demographic isn't my main consumer target and everyone knows the craftsman has to be as close as possible from the consumer; Sorry, really mate". Please remind me never to invest in anything you touch.
  - com2kid 10y ago
    The examples I gave are from my own personal experience. If you have a team of people in Seattle developing a product that measures UV, they will first bias themselves towards more light exposure (SAD is a huge thing in the Pacific Northwest), give a team from Australia the same job, and they'll look at using it for avoiding too much sun exposure. Another example; Microsoft's original Xbox controller was too big for many people's hands[0] (women, children, and many Japanese users as well). A more diverse team would have made that very obvious. Again, I've witnessed the result of industrial design within a diverse team, the second a physical product doesn't work for a member of the team, everyone starts to feel very differently. Yes in theory you can do a lot of user research and gain a better understanding of your target market, and yes some teams do succeed with that approach. But I've witnessed that personal anecdotes from a team member hold a lot more sway (rightly or wrongly!) than user research studies do. Think of it this way, for the people who were on that Xbox controller design team, for everyone they knew, the controller was a great fit. If at some point they got back a survey result saying that your survey (biased towards white males in their late teens to early 20s) came back with some small % of people having an issue, well, "works for me, and the 100 other engineers on this team" is the reply that will be given. > By your own logic you should mostly hire europeans because, well the EU is the single largest market of high purchasing power individuals. Do you see yourself saying to a capable latinx engineer: "Nope, sorry, your demographic isn't my main consumer target and everyone knows the craftsman has to be as close as possible from the consumer; Sorry, really mate". That is not what I am saying. In fact, I made no argument one way or the other about that. I only replied to a poster who said that they saw NO purpose at all in diversity on a team. I pointed out that diversity on a team can bring in different perspectives and viewpoints. I'm not advocating quotas, I'm advocating not being an asshole when hiring. All in all, I believe it is worth trying to remove bias from the hiring process, because leaving good /talent/ on the table is just plain stupid. As a hiring manager, doing interviews I have had feedback given back to me about candidates implying that due to the candidates ethnicity, that the candidate may not be a good "fit for my team". Crap like that is unacceptable, and leads to rejecting great developers. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_Controller#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_Controller#History
Iv 10y ago
We have proven studies that the c-factor of a group (think of it as an IQ test for groups of people, it measures the ability to solve problems) increases with the ratio of women. As for nationalities, I have discovered that companies who look for specific technical skills worldwide usually very naturally become diverse.
- ben_jones 10y ago
  I'd be interested in reading those studies. Do you have a source for mobile users who can't search as easily?
maverick_iceman 10y ago
Most of modern science and technology has been discovered/invented by white males - an incredibly uniform group in the eyes of today's diversity police. Clearly the lack of diversity was not that big of a problem for them. Disclaimer: I'm a non-white male.

ohjeez 10y ago

Monocultures, almost by definition, encourage groups to think alike. That means the group doesn't invent anything new, and has a strong tendency to work towards the lowest denominator. While that's sometimes valuable -- not everything needs to be revolutionary -- it does mean that true innovation is harder to achieve, because nobody is thinking outside the box. In fact, most of the team isn't even aware of the box. Step back from the color- and gender-counting varieties of diversity for a moment, and just think of the notion of diversity itself: a variation of backgrounds and viewpoints, which can contribute to a wider view and, when done mindfully, more opportunities to serve the community (the same community that buys your products). Surely you've had that wonderful feeling when a teammate comes up with an idea, and you respond, "Wow, what a great suggestion! I'd never have thought of that!" With attention to diversity (by which I mean, "attracting people of different viewpoints"), you encounter that sense of discovery far more often.

rimantas 10y ago
A number of things onventef ny monocultures contradict your theory.
- gaius 10y ago
  But were those truly monocultures? "Diversity" as practiced in the modern sense doesn't account for age, but it wasn't always so: once upon a time experience was valued... That's a key piece that's missing from all these discussions.
markonthewall 10y ago
Except the diversity quotas, or EEOs as they call it now, almost never allow for truly norm-bending individuals to access those roles. Having a different skin colour does not make or break group thinking. It's a mirage, at best, and a sad state of affairs for racial perception at worst. That trendy cult of diversity is only contributing to kick-start racial consciousness among white people and that fragmented society is going to blow-up in your face, down the road.
- ohjeez 10y ago
  FWIW I agree with you. Anything forced on a group is apt to be resented by its members, including the "token whatever" who feels that she has to represent "her kind" instead of winning or failing on her own merits. Instead, groups benefit when they themselves work to expand their own membership. It's _really_ easy for all of us to look for people who share our outlooks and opinions, a "mini me" in some way. But we grow only when we insert new ideas. I've been exceedingly lucky, in that I've worked with diverse groups of all sorts. They include people from varied backgrounds (rural vs city, money vs poor, race, gender), and in every instance I can think of a time when that "differentness" caused us to think of a better and different answer. For a lame example, someone who grew up in a rural area is more likely to think about how an online application works in a region with lousy connectivity. It's not that other team members can't think of such things, but the background ensure someone does.
ManlyBread 10y ago
>Monocultures, almost by definition, encourage groups to think alike. Why is that bad? The barriers in regards to language, religion, customs are close to non-existent and the possibilities of conflicts over gender/race dynamics are greatly lessened. The time that would otherwise be wasted on sorting out these differences can be used to perform actual work. >That means the group doesn't invent anything new Really?
ue_ 10y ago
Diversity in viewpoints, which I agree is important, does not arise from diversity in race or gender. The celebration of diversity in race or gender seems to be just for the sake of diversity. I don't know how you would select for diversity in viewpoints when hiring. But I do know that selecting for diversity in race or gender isn't a way to get there.

com2kid 10y ago

I make software for everyone, not just white males. Why? Well, consider if nothing else, that white males are not a majority of the world population! There is a lot of money being left on the table! As an example, let's say you are productizing a consumer UV monitor. For the American market, you sell it to 20 something white men in Cali as a way to work on their tan. Hey, maybe you succeed! But you are a fraction of the size you should be. If that team had a parent on it, he or she would ask about using it for babies. A woman from the south east part of Asia may ask about develop it for use in avoiding UV exposure! A completely opposite use case from the target audience! As I said, if you consider nothing else, money left on the table.

markonthewall 10y ago
I am left speechless before this comment. I cannot believe some people here unironically believe that because they hired someone with a particular skin colour or heritage this will translate in better software for their end-users. You do realise that worshipping diversity is symmetrically as non-sensical as starting a cult for homogeneity? Your assumption that an unlabelled individuals cannot work on a product whose target market isn't them is crazy. >I make software for everyone, not just white males. Why? Well, consider if nothing else, that white males are not a majority of the world population! There is a lot of money being left on the table! By your own logic you should mostly hire europeans because, well the EU is the single largest market of high purchasing power individuals. Do you see yourself saying to a capable latinx engineer: "Nope, sorry, your demographic isn't my main consumer target and everyone knows the craftsman has to be as close as possible from the consumer; Sorry, really mate". Please remind me never to invest in anything you touch.
- com2kid 10y ago
  The examples I gave are from my own personal experience. If you have a team of people in Seattle developing a product that measures UV, they will first bias themselves towards more light exposure (SAD is a huge thing in the Pacific Northwest), give a team from Australia the same job, and they'll look at using it for avoiding too much sun exposure. Another example; Microsoft's original Xbox controller was too big for many people's hands[0] (women, children, and many Japanese users as well). A more diverse team would have made that very obvious. Again, I've witnessed the result of industrial design within a diverse team, the second a physical product doesn't work for a member of the team, everyone starts to feel very differently. Yes in theory you can do a lot of user research and gain a better understanding of your target market, and yes some teams do succeed with that approach. But I've witnessed that personal anecdotes from a team member hold a lot more sway (rightly or wrongly!) than user research studies do. Think of it this way, for the people who were on that Xbox controller design team, for everyone they knew, the controller was a great fit. If at some point they got back a survey result saying that your survey (biased towards white males in their late teens to early 20s) came back with some small % of people having an issue, well, "works for me, and the 100 other engineers on this team" is the reply that will be given. > By your own logic you should mostly hire europeans because, well the EU is the single largest market of high purchasing power individuals. Do you see yourself saying to a capable latinx engineer: "Nope, sorry, your demographic isn't my main consumer target and everyone knows the craftsman has to be as close as possible from the consumer; Sorry, really mate". That is not what I am saying. In fact, I made no argument one way or the other about that. I only replied to a poster who said that they saw NO purpose at all in diversity on a team. I pointed out that diversity on a team can bring in different perspectives and viewpoints. I'm not advocating quotas, I'm advocating not being an asshole when hiring. All in all, I believe it is worth trying to remove bias from the hiring process, because leaving good /talent/ on the table is just plain stupid. As a hiring manager, doing interviews I have had feedback given back to me about candidates implying that due to the candidates ethnicity, that the candidate may not be a good "fit for my team". Crap like that is unacceptable, and leads to rejecting great developers. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_Controller#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_Controller#History

Iv 10y ago

We have proven studies that the c-factor of a group (think of it as an IQ test for groups of people, it measures the ability to solve problems) increases with the ratio of women. As for nationalities, I have discovered that companies who look for specific technical skills worldwide usually very naturally become diverse.

ben_jones 10y ago
I'd be interested in reading those studies. Do you have a source for mobile users who can't search as easily?

maverick_iceman 10y ago

Most of modern science and technology has been discovered/invented by white males - an incredibly uniform group in the eyes of today's diversity police. Clearly the lack of diversity was not that big of a problem for them. Disclaimer: I'm a non-white male.