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Maybe in the 21st century, the USA could be argued to be "good guys", but it's early in the century. In the last 20th Century, the USA definitely weren't the "

Maybe in the 21st century, the USA could be argued to be "good guys", but it's early in the century. In the last 20th Century, the USA definitely weren't the "good guys", perhaps the "least bad" guys, but not good. They overthrew and helped overthrow a multitude of democratically elected and popular governments because they didn't suit the interests of the USA (which extends to not just the US govt, but also corporations, especially fruit companies). Manifest dynasty and American Imperialism never died out at the end of the 19th century. There is a reason why articles like this [0], this [1], and this [2] exist. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy_of_the_United_States#Covert_actions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy_of_the_United_S... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_supported_by_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_...

tome 10y ago
> because they didn't suit the interests of the USA No, because they didn't suit the interests of halting the worldwide advance of totalitarian Communism. Great powers throw their weight around. What's creditable in the US case is that they threw their weight around in part to promote liberty and democracy across the world. Not every action can be taken as beneficent in isolation, but in bulk the US has been massively beneficent to the world.
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  > What's creditable in the US case is that they threw their weight around in part to promote liberty and democracy across the world. Oh, come on. They, at times, overthrew democratically elected heads of state like Allende in favor of military dictatorships that went on to torture tens of thousands.
  - nixos 10y ago
    Still, the difference is that most countries play realpolitik 100% of the time, while America plays it (say) 50%. That's quite good.
  - tome 10y ago
    Allende was a Marxist and it should be quite understandable that they sacrified their democratic principles in the cause of the greater liberty. I'm not going to defend any specific action especially when taken in isolation but in the large US global hegemony has been massively beneficient.
    - craigsmansion 10y ago
      Except for Middle America, South America, Africa, S-E Asia, the Middle-East, greater Persia. But other than those specific local actions, taken in isolation, it's all been massively good and massively beneficial.
    - guard-of-terra 10y ago
      If I'm not mistaken, neither late (that is post-Stalin) USSR nor its client states (this excludes N.Korea and China) did the kind of shit that USA-backed Pinochet did. Like throwing people in the sea, torturing civians by thousands, bombing presidential palace. The world was becoming a safer place, even on the wrong side of Iron Curtain, but this Chile thing was really a step backward. The guy was caught in UK and held behind bars for the rest of his life for a reason. Nope, I don't understand. What's the use of liberty and democracy when you end up worse than commies?
      - tome 10y ago
        I'm offering a rationale, not a defence. Not everything the USA has done has been selfless and not everything has worked out for the best, maybe not even the majority! But I must challenge the original assertion: when you take into account both capacity and intent, America was by far the most beneficient power of the 20th Century.
nixos 10y ago
"Least Bad" is often quite good. When comparing governments, one can't use a vacuum. It's not A vs. hypothetical B. For example, fighting WW2 "completely ethically" (such as waiting for absolute precision bombing, absolutely zero civilian casualties, etc.) would have lost the war. Yet, I'm happy that we didn't. Because the alternative would have been much worse.
0xFFC 10y ago
Iranian here, I completely agree. USA overthrown democratically elected secular government of Mosadegh, and right now I totally live in fucking shit show (created by fucking mullahs) just because of USA politicians thought of themselves as good people and we should intervene just because of our own interest in other countries destiny.They literally replaced Mosadegh with a fucking dictator who tortured people like animals. Give me fucking break. We all know human right situation in Saudi Arabia , but who supports them? United States fucking government. Give me fucking break dude. I am not that stupid to believe USA government is "good".they are as bad as other players. The only difference here is because of situation of domestic freedom they can not jail and tourture people as regular as their opponents do. Fuck them. Me and people like me as new generation of Iranian people which does not gives fuck about Islam(generally the youth in Iran are secular, atheist. Even the religious ones are open minded-exlude a very small fraction) or other stupid traditions,yet I have to pay the price just because some fucking stupid politicians thought we should stop Mosadegh. What they are doing now? They literally cut medical export to Iran , for what? Because Iran was going to build nuclear weapon with medical stuff? It is fucking lie.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- yesforwhat 10y ago
  US Pols are responsible for the government setup and administrated by Iranians. Do tell.
  - 0xFFC 10y ago
    You don't have a clue what you are talking about , don't you? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état Please educate yourselves before wasting other people's time. Differences of opinion is wonderful, but not knowing basics and yet answering , is beyond ignorance.
    - yesforwhat 10y ago

tome 10y ago

> because they didn't suit the interests of the USA No, because they didn't suit the interests of halting the worldwide advance of totalitarian Communism. Great powers throw their weight around. What's creditable in the US case is that they threw their weight around in part to promote liberty and democracy across the world. Not every action can be taken as beneficent in isolation, but in bulk the US has been massively beneficent to the world.

ceejayoz 10y ago
> What's creditable in the US case is that they threw their weight around in part to promote liberty and democracy across the world. Oh, come on. They, at times, overthrew democratically elected heads of state like Allende in favor of military dictatorships that went on to torture tens of thousands.
- nixos 10y ago
  Still, the difference is that most countries play realpolitik 100% of the time, while America plays it (say) 50%. That's quite good.
- tome 10y ago
  Allende was a Marxist and it should be quite understandable that they sacrified their democratic principles in the cause of the greater liberty. I'm not going to defend any specific action especially when taken in isolation but in the large US global hegemony has been massively beneficient.
  - craigsmansion 10y ago
    Except for Middle America, South America, Africa, S-E Asia, the Middle-East, greater Persia. But other than those specific local actions, taken in isolation, it's all been massively good and massively beneficial.
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    If I'm not mistaken, neither late (that is post-Stalin) USSR nor its client states (this excludes N.Korea and China) did the kind of shit that USA-backed Pinochet did. Like throwing people in the sea, torturing civians by thousands, bombing presidential palace. The world was becoming a safer place, even on the wrong side of Iron Curtain, but this Chile thing was really a step backward. The guy was caught in UK and held behind bars for the rest of his life for a reason. Nope, I don't understand. What's the use of liberty and democracy when you end up worse than commies?
    - tome 10y ago
      I'm offering a rationale, not a defence. Not everything the USA has done has been selfless and not everything has worked out for the best, maybe not even the majority! But I must challenge the original assertion: when you take into account both capacity and intent, America was by far the most beneficient power of the 20th Century.

nixos 10y ago

"Least Bad" is often quite good. When comparing governments, one can't use a vacuum. It's not A vs. hypothetical B. For example, fighting WW2 "completely ethically" (such as waiting for absolute precision bombing, absolutely zero civilian casualties, etc.) would have lost the war. Yet, I'm happy that we didn't. Because the alternative would have been much worse.

0xFFC 10y ago

Iranian here, I completely agree. USA overthrown democratically elected secular government of Mosadegh, and right now I totally live in fucking shit show (created by fucking mullahs) just because of USA politicians thought of themselves as good people and we should intervene just because of our own interest in other countries destiny.They literally replaced Mosadegh with a fucking dictator who tortured people like animals. Give me fucking break. We all know human right situation in Saudi Arabia , but who supports them? United States fucking government. Give me fucking break dude. I am not that stupid to believe USA government is "good".they are as bad as other players. The only difference here is because of situation of domestic freedom they can not jail and tourture people as regular as their opponents do. Fuck them. Me and people like me as new generation of Iranian people which does not gives fuck about Islam(generally the youth in Iran are secular, atheist. Even the religious ones are open minded-exlude a very small fraction) or other stupid traditions,yet I have to pay the price just because some fucking stupid politicians thought we should stop Mosadegh. What they are doing now? They literally cut medical export to Iran , for what? Because Iran was going to build nuclear weapon with medical stuff? It is fucking lie.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
yesforwhat 10y ago
US Pols are responsible for the government setup and administrated by Iranians. Do tell.
- 0xFFC 10y ago
  You don't have a clue what you are talking about , don't you? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état Please educate yourselves before wasting other people's time. Differences of opinion is wonderful, but not knowing basics and yet answering , is beyond ignorance.
  - yesforwhat 10y ago