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There is nothing "simple" about Java once you get past the basics. When you get into the EE world it gets extremely complicated.

by satysin 10y ago

pjmlp 10y ago
Which is exactly my point. Also the reason I argue that those that think Go will be kept simple, just aren't prepared for the eventual mainstream enterprise adoption. Imagine when IBM or similar, releases their vision of GoEE.
- satysin 10y ago
  I think Go depends in if Google want to take it from a language that solves their problems well to one that solves generic enterprise problems.
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
No. There's everything simple about Java. The semantics of Java are actually pretty simple, at least compared to C++. What's complicated are the monstrosities people build with Java, but those aren't inherent in the language. Saying that Java is complicated because EE exists is like saying that C is complicated because Linux exists: Complexity can be built atop simplicity. And for some reason, Java is a complexity magnet.
- MereInterest 10y ago
  I would say that the complexity of a language and the complexity of programs within that language are inversely correlated. Java is a very simple language, but as a result, the programs written in it must be more complicated to make up for the shortcomings of the language. As an example, Java's lifetime rules are much simpler than those of C++. At some point after all references are gone, the object will be garbage collected. Simple. But as a result of this simplicity, you don't know when the finalizer will be called. You can't use it, for example, to flush and close a file, because you don't know when file will be closed. Instead, you need to use try/except/finally, and so you can't add this to an existing class, because it would require code modification from all the users of the class. Up until Java 8 and lambda functions, functions could not be passed as arguments to other functions. Therefore, the developer needed to make an entirely new classes derived from "Callable". Complexity that came from the simplicity of the language. C++ has a lot of complexity in the language itself. I won't deny that. What I will argue is that the complexity of the language enables simplicity in programs. Edit: Lambda statements came in Java 8, not Java 7.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    No, not really. Complexity is not about the language: It's about how you use it. It's not necessarily Java's featureset that makes it so complex, it's its idioms. C++'s lifetime rules, on most variables, are this: It's allocated until you say it isn't. Some of the vars might be refcounted or GCed, but with GC you've still got the same problem on your hands as finalizers, and refcounting can't handle cycles. Manual memory management is dramatically more error-prone than finalizers ever were (unless you're using RAII, but that's not entirely idiomatic, and cannot be). As for functions not being able to be passed as args, that's not simplicity, that's a straight up limitation. What makes a language simple is uniformity, simplicity, and consistency. Java has a good deal more of all of these than C++ Complexity in the language doesn't enable simplicity in programs, though, because now your program has to deal with 6000 different special cases. In any case, Lisp and Scheme are possibly the simplest languages, and are celebrated for their power, clarity, and the simplicity with which they can express programs.
    - MereInterest 10y ago
      I'd be interested to hear why you say that RAII cannot be idiomatic. With `std::unique_ptr` and `std::shared_ptr` for handling pointers, `std::vector` for handling data arrays, `std::string` for handling char arrays, I would argue that modern C++ is very heavily RAII. At this point, if I have a class that cannot be declared on the stack, with cleanup handled by RAII, I consider it to be a broken class. Good point on limitations vs simplicity. I think that there are different forms of complexity. Some complexity is necessary, due to the nature of the underlying problem. Other complexity is incidental, being due to poor implementations. As an example of essential complexity, C++ has different declarations for stack-based variables and heap-based variables, while Java does not. This is because Java does not allow classes to be declared on the heap, and so it does not need an extra form of declaration. On the other hand, C++ definitely has lots of incidental complexity as well, mostly due to its long history. Having four different constructs for loops is incidental complexity. I agree that the idioms are what make Java programs be complicated, rather than the language itself. What I'm not sure on is how much those idioms are needed to overcome limitations in the language, and how much they are unnecessary parts of the culture. Oh, absolutely on Lisp. Lisp/Scheme are amazingly simple, and amazingly powerful. The one downside that I've found is that it doesn't correspond to the hardware as much. Much of C++'s complexity stems from trying to provide as many features as possible while still compiling down to reasonably fast code.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  > The semantics of Java are actually pretty simple, at least compared to C++. While true, have you ever tried to answer Java Puzzles?
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    It's not Lisp, but OTOH, C++ doesn't need puzzles: Template Metaprogramming, as well as many other parts of the language, are already one. And god help you if multiple programmers on a project use different subsets of the language...

There is nothing "simple" about Java once you get past the basics. When you get into the EE world it gets extremely complicated.

by satysin 10y ago

There is nothing "simple" about Java once you get past the basics. When you get into the EE world it gets extremely complicated.

pjmlp 10y ago

Which is exactly my point. Also the reason I argue that those that think Go will be kept simple, just aren't prepared for the eventual mainstream enterprise adoption. Imagine when IBM or similar, releases their vision of GoEE.

satysin 10y ago
I think Go depends in if Google want to take it from a language that solves their problems well to one that solves generic enterprise problems.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

No. There's everything simple about Java. The semantics of Java are actually pretty simple, at least compared to C++. What's complicated are the monstrosities people build with Java, but those aren't inherent in the language. Saying that Java is complicated because EE exists is like saying that C is complicated because Linux exists: Complexity can be built atop simplicity. And for some reason, Java is a complexity magnet.

MereInterest 10y ago
I would say that the complexity of a language and the complexity of programs within that language are inversely correlated. Java is a very simple language, but as a result, the programs written in it must be more complicated to make up for the shortcomings of the language. As an example, Java's lifetime rules are much simpler than those of C++. At some point after all references are gone, the object will be garbage collected. Simple. But as a result of this simplicity, you don't know when the finalizer will be called. You can't use it, for example, to flush and close a file, because you don't know when file will be closed. Instead, you need to use try/except/finally, and so you can't add this to an existing class, because it would require code modification from all the users of the class. Up until Java 8 and lambda functions, functions could not be passed as arguments to other functions. Therefore, the developer needed to make an entirely new classes derived from "Callable". Complexity that came from the simplicity of the language. C++ has a lot of complexity in the language itself. I won't deny that. What I will argue is that the complexity of the language enables simplicity in programs. Edit: Lambda statements came in Java 8, not Java 7.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  No, not really. Complexity is not about the language: It's about how you use it. It's not necessarily Java's featureset that makes it so complex, it's its idioms. C++'s lifetime rules, on most variables, are this: It's allocated until you say it isn't. Some of the vars might be refcounted or GCed, but with GC you've still got the same problem on your hands as finalizers, and refcounting can't handle cycles. Manual memory management is dramatically more error-prone than finalizers ever were (unless you're using RAII, but that's not entirely idiomatic, and cannot be). As for functions not being able to be passed as args, that's not simplicity, that's a straight up limitation. What makes a language simple is uniformity, simplicity, and consistency. Java has a good deal more of all of these than C++ Complexity in the language doesn't enable simplicity in programs, though, because now your program has to deal with 6000 different special cases. In any case, Lisp and Scheme are possibly the simplest languages, and are celebrated for their power, clarity, and the simplicity with which they can express programs.
  - MereInterest 10y ago
    I'd be interested to hear why you say that RAII cannot be idiomatic. With `std::unique_ptr` and `std::shared_ptr` for handling pointers, `std::vector` for handling data arrays, `std::string` for handling char arrays, I would argue that modern C++ is very heavily RAII. At this point, if I have a class that cannot be declared on the stack, with cleanup handled by RAII, I consider it to be a broken class. Good point on limitations vs simplicity. I think that there are different forms of complexity. Some complexity is necessary, due to the nature of the underlying problem. Other complexity is incidental, being due to poor implementations. As an example of essential complexity, C++ has different declarations for stack-based variables and heap-based variables, while Java does not. This is because Java does not allow classes to be declared on the heap, and so it does not need an extra form of declaration. On the other hand, C++ definitely has lots of incidental complexity as well, mostly due to its long history. Having four different constructs for loops is incidental complexity. I agree that the idioms are what make Java programs be complicated, rather than the language itself. What I'm not sure on is how much those idioms are needed to overcome limitations in the language, and how much they are unnecessary parts of the culture. Oh, absolutely on Lisp. Lisp/Scheme are amazingly simple, and amazingly powerful. The one downside that I've found is that it doesn't correspond to the hardware as much. Much of C++'s complexity stems from trying to provide as many features as possible while still compiling down to reasonably fast code.
pjmlp 10y ago
> The semantics of Java are actually pretty simple, at least compared to C++. While true, have you ever tried to answer Java Puzzles?
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  It's not Lisp, but OTOH, C++ doesn't need puzzles: Template Metaprogramming, as well as many other parts of the language, are already one. And god help you if multiple programmers on a project use different subsets of the language...