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i am unsure exactly what wells means by any of his words, but he's dead so i am unable to ask him if i were to follow well's example laid out in the letter i c
by justifier 10y ago
i am unsure exactly what wells means by any of his words, but he's dead so i am unable to ask him
if i were to follow well's example laid out in the letter i could just assert my own assumptions as fact and criticise those, but instead i will just try to explain how his words affect me
also, it is important to note that it is difficult to truly know anything about this letter because we are unaware of any prior or subsequent correspondence
> The outcome is that I don’t think I can do anything for the propaganda of your work.
did wells mean for the word propaganda to be a subtle dig? does he mean 'promotion'?
'i don't think i can do anything for'.. who asked him to? did joyce? is wells just asserting that his approval should be important to joyce?
if this letter was unsolicited i'd argue it's more about wells than joyce, and as it stands alone i find it abhorrent
> Your training has been Catholic, Irish, insurrectionary; mine, such as it was, was scientific, constructive and, I suppose, English.
on first glance this sentence had me suddenly wanting to read wells, until i read it again and realised he's 'just making pretty sounds' without any evidence or explicit reasoning which i would think any scientific and constructive mind would consider wholly necessary
this hearkens back to my first notion about a correspondence but why does wells tell joyce what joyce's 'training' is? and then set his own assumed 'training' up as a counterpoint.. and a very appealing one at that
wells continues on in this effort to assign opinion and motivation to joyce and then set himself as the better
> And while you were brought up under the delusion of political suppression I was brought up under the delusion of political responsibility. It seems a fine thing for you to defy and break up. To me not in the least.
this is another confusing message for me
for me 'delusion of political suppression' is a horrible thing to accuse someone of and self assessing a 'delusion of political responsibility' is something endeared to me
but it would seem to me someone who calls their own education one of a 'delusion of political responsibility' then i would assume that person thinks political responsibility is unnecessary but then he goes on to say that to 'defy and break up' is not for him..
so does he adhere to political responsibility even though he recognises it as a delusion? if so it would also seem rather unscientific
and of the notion of being 'constructive' it seems you in your comment also have some loose verbage in the same vein:
> although one wonders how much impact a different path might have had too.
impact? how do you measure that? i mean look at your first sentence wherein you say you've read joyce and hardly wells..
so prior to this letter who has impacted you more? you could argue, 'sure, i've read joyce but it went through me' but you still read joyce those words and ideas have a direct influence on you whether you agree or disagree with their content or construction where as an ignorance of wells means his work only indirectly impacts you
i think it is a silly effort to try to measure impact but since you deride joyce's assumed impact i will defend it
joyce was a major influence on the beat generation who were a group of poets in san francisco in the 1950s whose work went on to shape contemporary civilisation by altering legal definitions of words which catalysed a number of the social movements that followed in the coming years
this criticism and response of one of the beat poet's work plays perfectly with this letter:
> His central criticism is that the Beat embrace of spontaneity is bound up in an anti-intellectual worship of the "primitive" that can easily turn toward mindlessness and violence. Podhoretz asserted that there was a link between the Beats and criminal delinquents.
Ginsberg responded in a 1958 interview .. "The bit about anti-intellectualism is a piece of vanity, we had the same education, went to the same school, you know there are 'Intellectuals' and there are intellectuals. Podhoretz is just out of touch with twentieth-century literature, he's writing for the eighteenth-century mind. We have a personal literature now—Proust, Wolfe, Faulkner, Joyce." (o)
is wells 'out of touch'? who cares? but speaking negatively about someone else's work to prop up your own, for me, makes me question the quality of your work more than the one you are deriding
(o) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_Generation#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_Generation#Criticism
- Sharlin 10y agoYour post is almost as unreadable as Joyce's prose (to be fair, HN's layout and scant formatting options don't help), but one note: >> The outcome is that I don’t think I can do anything for the propaganda of your work. > did wells mean for the word propaganda to be a subtle dig? does he mean 'promotion'? In 1928 "propaganda" was still a fairly neutral term, literally "something that is to be propagated". It only acquired the current negative connotations during and after the World War II due to prominent use by several fascist governments, most notably Goebbels's Propagandaministerium [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reich_Ministry_of_Public_Enlightenment_and_Propaganda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reich_Ministry_of_Public_Enlig...
- justifier 10y agothanks for answering my question about his use of the word propaganda i'm glad i asked the question instead of just ascribing my assumptions about its use as fact and then criticising it > your post is almost as unreadable as Joyce's prose but this sally is as vapid and condescending as wells was in his letter
- mcguire 10y ago"And while you were brought up under the delusion of political suppression I was brought up under the delusion of political responsibility. It seems a fine thing for you to defy and break up. To me not in the least." Joyce was Irish, and while I am not sure of his political affiliations, I am fairly confident that he was never a supporter of the English rule of Ireland, particularly after the 1916 uprising. (This letter was written in 1928, seven years after the end of the Irish revolution and 5 after the end of the ensuing civil war.) To say that he was raised with "political suppression" is a reference to the frequently very heavy handed treatment of the Irish by the English. On the other hand, as far as I can tell he was never politically active, and may never have returned to Ireland after the revolution or even the 1916 uprising. Wells was a socialist, a pacifist, politically active, and a firm believer in the perfectibility of humanity, though peaceful and scientific means. A reference to "political responsibility" by him likely indicates his preference for things like voting and writing (A cute Chesterton quote: "Mr Wells is a born storyteller who has sold his birthright for a pot of message") over things like shooting. I'd say the use of "delusion" in both cases is a bit of ironic self-derision. He appears to be ascribing to Joyce the belief that the existing structure (of novels, in this case) must be torn down and thrown away for progress to be made, while his own belief is that everything can be improved incrementally, even novels. But, by using "delusion" he implies that both are probably incorrect. To my mind, Wells is describing in detail why he does not care for Finnegans Wake or Ulysses, which is perfectly fine as it's his opinion and all that. He's also offering a fair and reasonably valid criticism of Finnegans Wake and Ulysses: "Now with regard to this literary experiment of yours. It’s a considerable thing because you are a very considerable man and you have in your crowded composition a mighty genius for expression which has escaped discipline. But I don’t think it gets anywhere. You have turned your back on common men—on their elementary needs and their restricted time and intelligence, and you have elaborated. What is the result? Vast riddles. Your last two works have been more amusing and exciting to write than they will ever be to read. Take me as a typical common reader. Do I get much pleasure from this work? No. Do I feel I am getting something new and illuminating as I do when I read Anrep’s dreadful translation of Pavlov’s badly written book on Conditioned Reflexes? No. So I ask: Who the hell is this Joyce who demands so many waking hours of the few thousand I have still to live for a proper appreciation of his quirks and fancies and flashes of rendering?"