5 ms·

As someone that doesn't know what you're talking about, can you elaborate?

analog31 10y ago
For instance, web forum threads about the necessity of wearing helmets will almost instantly turn into flame wars. Likewise, if you admit to rolling through stop signs, you will get attacked, even though most cyclists and car drivers roll through stop signs.
- atemerev 10y ago
  I am a car enthusiast. Rolling through a stop sign is a serious offense for us, and outright dangerous, and can only happen out of negligence. But cyclists seem to do it routinely, as well as passing on red, and don't think it is a big deal. I am nervous about cyclists both as driver and as pedestrian. When I walk, they can turn out of nowhere where a car is not expected, and they are silent. I can suddenly turn or stop, and a cyclist can happily bump into me, as it has happened more than once. On the road, cyclists are much more vulnerable than pedestrians (it takes just a light touch to tip over the bike), and they often ignore the basic safety rules like "never pass on red". I mean, I respect your mode of transportation, but please respect ours! I don't want to go to jail, and most cyclists probably wouldn't want to be dead, so it is better to play it safe.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    I think you're proving the point, but I'm not going to fan the cyclist/driver flames. > Rolling through a stop sign is a serious offense for us, and outright dangerous. It's not outright dangerous, assuming you're in North America. The US has so many stop signs that the safety message is lost, the vast majority are pointless. In Europe [1], small junctions in residential areas don't have any signs at all. Where they meet larger roads, they just have yield signs. If there's a lot of traffic, there could be a mini roundabout (painted roundabout), which just changes the way people yield -- to the left, rather than to the larger road. In all these cases, it's not required to stop. The driver/cyclist uses their judgement, based on traffic, visibility, and so on. Stop signs are used sparingly, and show there's a real danger. For example, in the UK "stop signs may be placed only at sites with severely restricted visibility, and each must be individually approved by the Secretary of State for Transport" [2]. Where I grew up in England, I know of only one stop sign out of all the routes we took to visit places. It was where an overhanging mediæval building obscured the view of traffic at a junction. [1] the parts with roads at least as safe as the USA [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign#United_Kingdom
    - analog31 10y ago
      Like you say, stop signs are everywhere in the US. They are the default traffic control. In my view, they provide three functions: 1. Providing a simple, general purpose traffic control. Going through every town and re-thinking every intersection on a case by case basis would be quite costly, and the amount of public controversy might make it prohibitive. 2. Limiting speed. My house is on a stretch of street that has no stop signs for a few blocks, and cars get going pretty fast, typically 10 to 20 mph above the speed limit of 30 mph. 3. Encouraging drivers to use the main roads instead of neighborhood streets.
  - bryanlarsen 10y ago
    You're right about respect. As a car enthusiast, do you ever drive faster than the speed limit? Speeding significantly increases the odds of fatalities in pedestrians and cyclists. It took becoming a parent to get me to slow down.
    - atemerev 10y ago
      No, not on purpose at least. If I want to drive fast and legal, Germany is not far away from where I live. And if it weren't, there are racing tracks in the area. Speeding in the city limits is of course nuts. I can understand people who test their cars at night on empty highways, though it is still dangerous (you don't know if another car will attempt to take the in-ramp really slow). But in a the city it is madness, pedestrians and cyclists can jump from everywhere. Lives can be ruined. Cars are dangerous, let's respect that.
  - xyzzy4 10y ago
    > Rolling through a stop sign is a serious offense for us, and outright dangerous, and can only happen out of negligence. This is not true. It depends on the location, traffic conditions, and your knowledge of the area.
    - atemerev 10y ago
      You can't predict if another driver will drive at full speed right through, while not looking in your direction. If you don't stop, you are screwed. There are other people on the road, and you can neither control nor predict their actions.
      - analog31 10y ago
        True, but stopping and then starting again doesn't make the other drivers any more predictable.
        atemerev 10y ago
        It gives you time to see one approaching and don't go.
  - smileysteve 10y ago
    > Rolling through a stop sign is a serious offense for us, and outright dangerous, and can only happen out of negligence. I regularly get frustrated on my (.4 mile) bike commute home when 1-5 cars in a row don't pay attention to 2 of my 3 stop signs. Likely, all in an effort to save 30 seconds on their 50 minute 1 way commute. So, it seems that negligence is common and it's not so serious of an offense. We can agree on it being dangerous though. Location: Atlanta, GA.
- douche 10y ago
  I assume people are freaking out if you take the position that wearing a flimsy Styrofoam and plastic shell over your noggin is about as useful as taking sugar pills, since that challenges the conventional wisdom we we told in all the school PSAs?

For instance, web forum threads about the necessity of wearing helmets will almost instantly turn into flame wars. Likewise, if you admit to rolling through stop signs, you will get attacked, even though most cyclists and car drivers roll through stop signs.

atemerev 10y ago
I am a car enthusiast. Rolling through a stop sign is a serious offense for us, and outright dangerous, and can only happen out of negligence. But cyclists seem to do it routinely, as well as passing on red, and don't think it is a big deal. I am nervous about cyclists both as driver and as pedestrian. When I walk, they can turn out of nowhere where a car is not expected, and they are silent. I can suddenly turn or stop, and a cyclist can happily bump into me, as it has happened more than once. On the road, cyclists are much more vulnerable than pedestrians (it takes just a light touch to tip over the bike), and they often ignore the basic safety rules like "never pass on red". I mean, I respect your mode of transportation, but please respect ours! I don't want to go to jail, and most cyclists probably wouldn't want to be dead, so it is better to play it safe.
- Symbiote 10y ago
  I think you're proving the point, but I'm not going to fan the cyclist/driver flames. > Rolling through a stop sign is a serious offense for us, and outright dangerous. It's not outright dangerous, assuming you're in North America. The US has so many stop signs that the safety message is lost, the vast majority are pointless. In Europe [1], small junctions in residential areas don't have any signs at all. Where they meet larger roads, they just have yield signs. If there's a lot of traffic, there could be a mini roundabout (painted roundabout), which just changes the way people yield -- to the left, rather than to the larger road. In all these cases, it's not required to stop. The driver/cyclist uses their judgement, based on traffic, visibility, and so on. Stop signs are used sparingly, and show there's a real danger. For example, in the UK "stop signs may be placed only at sites with severely restricted visibility, and each must be individually approved by the Secretary of State for Transport" [2]. Where I grew up in England, I know of only one stop sign out of all the routes we took to visit places. It was where an overhanging mediæval building obscured the view of traffic at a junction. [1] the parts with roads at least as safe as the USA [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign#United_Kingdom
  - analog31 10y ago
    Like you say, stop signs are everywhere in the US. They are the default traffic control. In my view, they provide three functions: 1. Providing a simple, general purpose traffic control. Going through every town and re-thinking every intersection on a case by case basis would be quite costly, and the amount of public controversy might make it prohibitive. 2. Limiting speed. My house is on a stretch of street that has no stop signs for a few blocks, and cars get going pretty fast, typically 10 to 20 mph above the speed limit of 30 mph. 3. Encouraging drivers to use the main roads instead of neighborhood streets.
- bryanlarsen 10y ago
  You're right about respect. As a car enthusiast, do you ever drive faster than the speed limit? Speeding significantly increases the odds of fatalities in pedestrians and cyclists. It took becoming a parent to get me to slow down.
  - atemerev 10y ago
    No, not on purpose at least. If I want to drive fast and legal, Germany is not far away from where I live. And if it weren't, there are racing tracks in the area. Speeding in the city limits is of course nuts. I can understand people who test their cars at night on empty highways, though it is still dangerous (you don't know if another car will attempt to take the in-ramp really slow). But in a the city it is madness, pedestrians and cyclists can jump from everywhere. Lives can be ruined. Cars are dangerous, let's respect that.
- xyzzy4 10y ago
  > Rolling through a stop sign is a serious offense for us, and outright dangerous, and can only happen out of negligence. This is not true. It depends on the location, traffic conditions, and your knowledge of the area.
  - atemerev 10y ago
    You can't predict if another driver will drive at full speed right through, while not looking in your direction. If you don't stop, you are screwed. There are other people on the road, and you can neither control nor predict their actions.
    - analog31 10y ago
      True, but stopping and then starting again doesn't make the other drivers any more predictable.
      - atemerev 10y ago
        It gives you time to see one approaching and don't go.
- smileysteve 10y ago
  > Rolling through a stop sign is a serious offense for us, and outright dangerous, and can only happen out of negligence. I regularly get frustrated on my (.4 mile) bike commute home when 1-5 cars in a row don't pay attention to 2 of my 3 stop signs. Likely, all in an effort to save 30 seconds on their 50 minute 1 way commute. So, it seems that negligence is common and it's not so serious of an offense. We can agree on it being dangerous though. Location: Atlanta, GA.
douche 10y ago
I assume people are freaking out if you take the position that wearing a flimsy Styrofoam and plastic shell over your noggin is about as useful as taking sugar pills, since that challenges the conventional wisdom we we told in all the school PSAs?