5 ms·

As an independently wealthy individual, due to family inheritance and MS stock options, even before starting Fog Creek, I don't think Joel is in much of a posit

As an independently wealthy individual, due to family inheritance and MS stock options, even before starting Fog Creek, I don't think Joel is in much of a position of authority to discuss the average corporate employee's economic perspective. This article would be far more credible were he not posting on his $10k Sonus home audio system and written by someone who had overcome real economic hardships in life. Fog Creek's first offices were in his grandmother's New York brownstone. Most start-ups in New York can barely afford a closet-sized office.

edw519 19y ago
Jealous?
- bonsaitree 19y ago
  Actually, I'm a big fan. There's no denying his personal work ethic, leadership, and marketing skills. Several of our clients actually use FogBuzz. If all it took was money, everyone could be just as successful. Anyone remember Magnet Interactive? It was a consulting shrink-wrap product start-up bootstrapped by blue-bloods which was started post dot-com-crash. It died a quick death. Joel and his partner built Fog Creek into a success post-dot-com bust and switched business models from consulting to products on-the-fly. They also do a great deal with a very small staff. Analogies to Craigslist come to mind. There's a lot to admire. It's just a poor subject and analogy choice for Joel. I got the same feeling recently when reading an article on how to "fix" America's public school system--written by Jack (ex GE-CEO) and Suzi Welch. Mr. Welch may know "leadership" and how to run a large business conglomerate, but he has zero "line" experience with the day-to-day challenges of teachers in the modern classroom. Unfortunately, there's no way to avoid some ad hominem in my refutation since the article's thesis is itself purportedly supported by ad hominem experiences. The article quotes specific examples from Joel's conscripted Isreali Army experience. My comments include examples provided by Joel himself on his personal website and essays on building Fog Creek over the years.
mechanical_fish 19y ago
Are you an independently wealthy individual? If not, why do you feel that you are in a position of authority to discuss the state of knowledge of the average rich person? Could it be that you, like Joel, are capable of observation and imagination? And are you asserting that Joel, who has not only worked as an Israeli soldier (did you read the essay?) and a baker's assistant, but has also spent time as an average, corporate Microsoft employee, is somehow ineligible to discuss his own former perspective? Or are you suggesting that Joel somehow got special treatment at Microsoft because his grandma had money? I'm sure Bill Gates was really impressed by that. If you think Joel is wrong, give us some arguments. Spare us the ad hominem attacks.
run4yourlives 19y ago
To his credit and as a former grunt myself, you won't survive in any army with an attitude of being the "rich kid" for longer than 30 seconds. (Although the Israeli army is conscripted, so it could be different.) Being an infantry soldier is just about one of the toughest and bottom of the barrel jobs on the planet. Anyone who serves - in my mind - is automatically given the right to speak from the school of hard knocks.
henning 19y ago
I find it amazing that he still takes the subway, apparently.
- run4yourlives 19y ago
  Why? In New York, and most livable cities it's often the best way to get around... faster, no parking hassles, no traffic, etc etc.
  - henning 19y ago
    I thought the rich investment banker people had cars. Like, I read an article about a new BMW dealership strategically placed near Wall Street.
rams 19y ago
Thanks bonsaitree, we need a reality check once in a while.
pchristensen 19y ago
Perhaps he wrote this as a reminder to himself? Perhaps he had a problem like this at Fog Creek and wanted to share the lesson he learned? Perhaps the editors thought the readers of Inc Magazine would appreciate this? Plus, he tries to limit hours/wk to 40, gives 6 weeks of vacation, free catered lunches, etc. He's hardly asking his employees to work like founders.

edw519 19y ago

Jealous?

bonsaitree 19y ago
Actually, I'm a big fan. There's no denying his personal work ethic, leadership, and marketing skills. Several of our clients actually use FogBuzz. If all it took was money, everyone could be just as successful. Anyone remember Magnet Interactive? It was a consulting shrink-wrap product start-up bootstrapped by blue-bloods which was started post dot-com-crash. It died a quick death. Joel and his partner built Fog Creek into a success post-dot-com bust and switched business models from consulting to products on-the-fly. They also do a great deal with a very small staff. Analogies to Craigslist come to mind. There's a lot to admire. It's just a poor subject and analogy choice for Joel. I got the same feeling recently when reading an article on how to "fix" America's public school system--written by Jack (ex GE-CEO) and Suzi Welch. Mr. Welch may know "leadership" and how to run a large business conglomerate, but he has zero "line" experience with the day-to-day challenges of teachers in the modern classroom. Unfortunately, there's no way to avoid some ad hominem in my refutation since the article's thesis is itself purportedly supported by ad hominem experiences. The article quotes specific examples from Joel's conscripted Isreali Army experience. My comments include examples provided by Joel himself on his personal website and essays on building Fog Creek over the years.

mechanical_fish 19y ago

Are you an independently wealthy individual? If not, why do you feel that you are in a position of authority to discuss the state of knowledge of the average rich person? Could it be that you, like Joel, are capable of observation and imagination? And are you asserting that Joel, who has not only worked as an Israeli soldier (did you read the essay?) and a baker's assistant, but has also spent time as an average, corporate Microsoft employee, is somehow ineligible to discuss his own former perspective? Or are you suggesting that Joel somehow got special treatment at Microsoft because his grandma had money? I'm sure Bill Gates was really impressed by that. If you think Joel is wrong, give us some arguments. Spare us the ad hominem attacks.

run4yourlives 19y ago

To his credit and as a former grunt myself, you won't survive in any army with an attitude of being the "rich kid" for longer than 30 seconds. (Although the Israeli army is conscripted, so it could be different.) Being an infantry soldier is just about one of the toughest and bottom of the barrel jobs on the planet. Anyone who serves - in my mind - is automatically given the right to speak from the school of hard knocks.

henning 19y ago

I find it amazing that he still takes the subway, apparently.

run4yourlives 19y ago
Why? In New York, and most livable cities it's often the best way to get around... faster, no parking hassles, no traffic, etc etc.
- henning 19y ago
  I thought the rich investment banker people had cars. Like, I read an article about a new BMW dealership strategically placed near Wall Street.

rams 19y ago

Thanks bonsaitree, we need a reality check once in a while.

pchristensen 19y ago

Perhaps he wrote this as a reminder to himself? Perhaps he had a problem like this at Fog Creek and wanted to share the lesson he learned? Perhaps the editors thought the readers of Inc Magazine would appreciate this? Plus, he tries to limit hours/wk to 40, gives 6 weeks of vacation, free catered lunches, etc. He's hardly asking his employees to work like founders.