5 ms·

So You Want to Be a Hero?

145 points by jsnell 10y ago

sztwiorok 10y ago
Corey and Lori Ann Cole are the best! I can't wait for their new game :) https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/transolargames/hero-u-rogue-to-redemption/description https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/transolargames/hero-u-r...
- psyc 10y ago
  Aw. For a second I thought, "Wow, an actual good Kickstarter?" and went to check it out. I found another 3-ring circus of "reward tiers", empty promises, and DukeNukemForeverWare.
  - nicolas_t 10y ago
    Quest for Infamy is a kickstarter project that delivered a good quest of glory like game... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/infamousquests/quest-for-infamy-an-adventure-game-by-infamous-que https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/infamousquests/quest-fo...
    - nyhc99 10y ago
      I played through quest for infamy as the thief character (of course) and I'd say it was at least as good as QFG3. Not without faults but worthwhile for any fans of the Coles' games.
- Paul_S 10y ago
  People can't see your sarcasm on the Internet. For those who are not following the self-mugging service that is kickstarter it's one of those projects that promises the moon and doesn't even deliver the photo of it. It's many years past the deadline with no end in sight. Most of these just peter out, some get to Steam Eearly Access and stay in Beta forever. Some just take the money and run. The percentage of projects that get to release is so tiny it's actually measure in permilles.
forgettableuser 10y ago
Quest for Glory and Sierra fans who enjoyed this article may also really enjoy "Why We Loved Sierra Games". The Coles and some other Sierra designers said some nice things about this too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wua96SI6SBE&list=PLPAVYgFfeddJzax1X4VUj69Z1Vs4PqGlA&index=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wua96SI6SBE&list=PLPAVYgFfed...
32bitkid 10y ago
The quest for glory I VGA remake was the first game I ever purchased with my own money as a teen; and it made a huge impact on me. (although I honestly think that qfg2 was the best game in the series). Though the mechanics have been explored in other games since, I still like to go back and play through 1-5 every now and then. They still hold up surprisingly well, through the glossy lens of nostalgia. In fact, just this morning, my little brother asked me if the new dues ex is worth picking up and I described it as "scratching my itch for the old quest for glory series" It's great to read insights into some of these games, though I sometimes worry about the history of a lot of the influential works in this medium. I'm afraid it'll get lost and unappreciated, and be unplayable. Can there be a "criterion collection" for early video games and interactive fiction. Is something that even matters? Maybe I'm just getting old.
- 32bitkid 10y ago
  For those interested in the series, and classic sierra adventure games in general, be sure to check out AGDI's remake of qfg2 http://www.agdinteractive.com/games/qfg2/ http://www.agdinteractive.com/games/qfg2/ They are a super talented bunch and its a worthy remake/homage/labor-of-love to finalize the series. I kind of wish I had the talent and dedication to tackle making qfg 5 into the vga style of the rest, and implement some of the other features that got cut from the final chapter. Cest la vie
  - germinalphrase 10y ago
    I get x11 errors when attempting to launch on OS X 10.11 Anyone know a work around?
- smacktoward 10y ago
  > Can there be a "criterion collection" for early video games and interactive fiction It's not exactly the same thing, but the closest analogue I can think of is the old "Hall of Fame" list that Computer Gaming World magazine used to curate, back when that magazine was still a thing: http://www.1up.com/features/hall-of-fame http://www.1up.com/features/hall-of-fame It'd be an interesting exercise to put together an annotated version of that list showing the current status of each title, including availability via GOG/Steam/Archive.org/etc.
CM30 10y ago
The first quote by Corey Cole on that page is brilliant, and is something so many game designers shoud probably keep in mind: > Rule #1 is “The Player Must have Fun.” It’s trivially easy for a game designer to “defeat” players. We have all the tools and all the power. The trick is to play on the same side as the players, to tell the story together, and to make them the stars. So many game designers (especially amateur ones) seem to think game design is about screwing over the player at every opportunity. That it's a battle between the designer and the player, with the aim to make things as difficult as possible. And the point about a lot of Sirerra's designers not actually having much experience playing video games kind of says a lot, doesn't it? Certainly explains how brutal most of their adventure games were.
- jasonkostempski 10y ago
  Sierra games were some of my favorites. Too many games do way too much hand holding.
  - projektir 10y ago
    This attitude is always a bit strange within the context of game design. "Hand holding" just makes it sound /bad/, like something is wrong with the person playing. While, in reality, people have very different preferences to their games, how difficult they are, or where the difficulty lies.
  - noelwelsh 10y ago
    I played a lot of Sierra games but Quest for Glory was by far my favourite series. I think it's totally valid to take different views on game design, and no doubt there is an audience for may different approaches (e.g. there is a certain type of person who enjoys bullet hell games, which I find totally tedious.) What irked me about most Sierra games is that each puzzle had only a single solution, and most of those solutions were totally arbitrary. The added "fun" in the earlier Sierra games was you had to figure out the arbitrary text to enter to activate the arbitrary solution as well. This is also very apparent in the Fighting Fantasy books, if you've every played them. The only way this makes sense to me is to consider dying part of the game and the meta-game, over many restarts, is the real game. I don't find this very satisfying.
noelwelsh 10y ago
I loved Quest for Glory (or Heroes Quest, as it was when my sister and I purchased the first one) when I was younger. We totally mini-maxed it, spamming "pick nose" and sneaking everywhere to max out our skills (and of course we were a thief, because they could do fight and do magic as well.) What sticks with me, however, is how the story gave the player freedom while still remaining engaging (exactly the points the article makes). So-called computer RPGs focused on the most boring parts of role-playing---combat---and completely ignored the thing that makes RPGs what they are, the player's role in creating the story! Bards Tale and Wizardry games that are contemporaneous to Quest for Glory are decidedly weaker sauce. Games like Ultima that tried to create an open world mostly ended up filling that world with bland variations on the same theme, and lost any narrative drive through endless side quests. Although we ground like only kids with nothing better to do can, there was no need for excessive grinding in Quest for Glory. You could push the story forward fairly quickly, and every puzzle had multiple solutions. Totally agreed with 32bitkid that Deus Ex is the closest contemporary game to Quest for Glory, combining strong narrative with player freedom.
- nebulous1 10y ago
  Do I not remember "pick nose" eventually killing you?
  - noelwelsh 10y ago
    Only if your lock picking skill was low. Over a certain level you could mine your nose for skill points indefinitely. I just remembered we used to throw rocks everywhere to increase that skill. Even used to use rocks to chip (and sometimes kill) enemies while running from screen to screen to prevent them getting into close combat. I can't imagine having so much free time anymore :)
    - BuckRogers 10y ago
      I know what you're saying, but if I do get free time again it will be to play the QFG series again! I'm very letdown with contemporary gaming and felt the best titles came out in the late 80s till the 90s came to a close. The arcade focused stuff that came before was good and impressive (who as a child was NOT impressed standing in awe in front of Rampage circa 1986) but wasn't exactly deep. And the stuff today is almost entirely rehashes of formulas created in the late 80s or 90s. It's why I've given up on "high end" gaming rigs and now use a Skull Canyon NUC (and a Wii U, Nintendo still has the touch).
schoen 10y ago
> Our first (and Sierra’s first) Producer, Guruka Singh Khalsa, taught us the “Ken Williams Rule” based on something Robert Heinlein wrote: “That which he tells you three times is true.” Originally written by Lewis Carroll: "Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried, As he landed his crew with care; Supporting each man on the top of the tide By a finger entwined in his hair. "Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice: That alone should encourage the crew. Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice: What I tell you three times is true." (See also Appendix ל of the Illuminatus! Trilogy.)
dharma1 10y ago
Loved all the Sierra games, especially Hero's Quest. Any recommendations for PG (kids) for something similar today? Deus Ex seems good but not for under 10... I really loved the fantasy world, the interactive story telling, and the challenges of the Quest for Glory series. Would pay good money for a hand painted, well crafted, modern point and click with an immersive story like this. The 8bit EGA/VGA stuff brings back warm memories but I don't think that's the thing that made it magical for me.
- danso 10y ago
  Apparently Heroine's Quest, a freeware game from 2014, is quite good https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/15/freeware-garden-heroines-quest/ https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/15/freeware-garden-...
Animats 10y ago
That's the pitch for Ubisoft's "Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon - Wasteland". There are several different ways to approach the battles. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdJub3Kz2wI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdJub3Kz2wI

145 points by jsnell 10y ago

Corey and Lori Ann Cole are the best! I can't wait for their new game :) https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/transolargames/hero-u-rogue-to-redemption/description https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/transolargames/hero-u-r...

psyc 10y ago
Aw. For a second I thought, "Wow, an actual good Kickstarter?" and went to check it out. I found another 3-ring circus of "reward tiers", empty promises, and DukeNukemForeverWare.
- nicolas_t 10y ago
  Quest for Infamy is a kickstarter project that delivered a good quest of glory like game... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/infamousquests/quest-for-infamy-an-adventure-game-by-infamous-que https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/infamousquests/quest-fo...
  - nyhc99 10y ago
    I played through quest for infamy as the thief character (of course) and I'd say it was at least as good as QFG3. Not without faults but worthwhile for any fans of the Coles' games.
Paul_S 10y ago
People can't see your sarcasm on the Internet. For those who are not following the self-mugging service that is kickstarter it's one of those projects that promises the moon and doesn't even deliver the photo of it. It's many years past the deadline with no end in sight. Most of these just peter out, some get to Steam Eearly Access and stay in Beta forever. Some just take the money and run. The percentage of projects that get to release is so tiny it's actually measure in permilles.

forgettableuser 10y ago

Quest for Glory and Sierra fans who enjoyed this article may also really enjoy "Why We Loved Sierra Games". The Coles and some other Sierra designers said some nice things about this too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wua96SI6SBE&list=PLPAVYgFfeddJzax1X4VUj69Z1Vs4PqGlA&index=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wua96SI6SBE&list=PLPAVYgFfed...

32bitkid 10y ago

The quest for glory I VGA remake was the first game I ever purchased with my own money as a teen; and it made a huge impact on me. (although I honestly think that qfg2 was the best game in the series). Though the mechanics have been explored in other games since, I still like to go back and play through 1-5 every now and then. They still hold up surprisingly well, through the glossy lens of nostalgia. In fact, just this morning, my little brother asked me if the new dues ex is worth picking up and I described it as "scratching my itch for the old quest for glory series" It's great to read insights into some of these games, though I sometimes worry about the history of a lot of the influential works in this medium. I'm afraid it'll get lost and unappreciated, and be unplayable. Can there be a "criterion collection" for early video games and interactive fiction. Is something that even matters? Maybe I'm just getting old.

32bitkid 10y ago
For those interested in the series, and classic sierra adventure games in general, be sure to check out AGDI's remake of qfg2 http://www.agdinteractive.com/games/qfg2/ http://www.agdinteractive.com/games/qfg2/ They are a super talented bunch and its a worthy remake/homage/labor-of-love to finalize the series. I kind of wish I had the talent and dedication to tackle making qfg 5 into the vga style of the rest, and implement some of the other features that got cut from the final chapter. Cest la vie
- germinalphrase 10y ago
  I get x11 errors when attempting to launch on OS X 10.11 Anyone know a work around?
smacktoward 10y ago
> Can there be a "criterion collection" for early video games and interactive fiction It's not exactly the same thing, but the closest analogue I can think of is the old "Hall of Fame" list that Computer Gaming World magazine used to curate, back when that magazine was still a thing: http://www.1up.com/features/hall-of-fame http://www.1up.com/features/hall-of-fame It'd be an interesting exercise to put together an annotated version of that list showing the current status of each title, including availability via GOG/Steam/Archive.org/etc.

CM30 10y ago

The first quote by Corey Cole on that page is brilliant, and is something so many game designers shoud probably keep in mind: > Rule #1 is “The Player Must have Fun.” It’s trivially easy for a game designer to “defeat” players. We have all the tools and all the power. The trick is to play on the same side as the players, to tell the story together, and to make them the stars. So many game designers (especially amateur ones) seem to think game design is about screwing over the player at every opportunity. That it's a battle between the designer and the player, with the aim to make things as difficult as possible. And the point about a lot of Sirerra's designers not actually having much experience playing video games kind of says a lot, doesn't it? Certainly explains how brutal most of their adventure games were.

jasonkostempski 10y ago
Sierra games were some of my favorites. Too many games do way too much hand holding.
- projektir 10y ago
  This attitude is always a bit strange within the context of game design. "Hand holding" just makes it sound /bad/, like something is wrong with the person playing. While, in reality, people have very different preferences to their games, how difficult they are, or where the difficulty lies.
- noelwelsh 10y ago
  I played a lot of Sierra games but Quest for Glory was by far my favourite series. I think it's totally valid to take different views on game design, and no doubt there is an audience for may different approaches (e.g. there is a certain type of person who enjoys bullet hell games, which I find totally tedious.) What irked me about most Sierra games is that each puzzle had only a single solution, and most of those solutions were totally arbitrary. The added "fun" in the earlier Sierra games was you had to figure out the arbitrary text to enter to activate the arbitrary solution as well. This is also very apparent in the Fighting Fantasy books, if you've every played them. The only way this makes sense to me is to consider dying part of the game and the meta-game, over many restarts, is the real game. I don't find this very satisfying.

noelwelsh 10y ago

I loved Quest for Glory (or Heroes Quest, as it was when my sister and I purchased the first one) when I was younger. We totally mini-maxed it, spamming "pick nose" and sneaking everywhere to max out our skills (and of course we were a thief, because they could do fight and do magic as well.) What sticks with me, however, is how the story gave the player freedom while still remaining engaging (exactly the points the article makes). So-called computer RPGs focused on the most boring parts of role-playing---combat---and completely ignored the thing that makes RPGs what they are, the player's role in creating the story! Bards Tale and Wizardry games that are contemporaneous to Quest for Glory are decidedly weaker sauce. Games like Ultima that tried to create an open world mostly ended up filling that world with bland variations on the same theme, and lost any narrative drive through endless side quests. Although we ground like only kids with nothing better to do can, there was no need for excessive grinding in Quest for Glory. You could push the story forward fairly quickly, and every puzzle had multiple solutions. Totally agreed with 32bitkid that Deus Ex is the closest contemporary game to Quest for Glory, combining strong narrative with player freedom.

nebulous1 10y ago
Do I not remember "pick nose" eventually killing you?
- noelwelsh 10y ago
  Only if your lock picking skill was low. Over a certain level you could mine your nose for skill points indefinitely. I just remembered we used to throw rocks everywhere to increase that skill. Even used to use rocks to chip (and sometimes kill) enemies while running from screen to screen to prevent them getting into close combat. I can't imagine having so much free time anymore :)
  - BuckRogers 10y ago
    I know what you're saying, but if I do get free time again it will be to play the QFG series again! I'm very letdown with contemporary gaming and felt the best titles came out in the late 80s till the 90s came to a close. The arcade focused stuff that came before was good and impressive (who as a child was NOT impressed standing in awe in front of Rampage circa 1986) but wasn't exactly deep. And the stuff today is almost entirely rehashes of formulas created in the late 80s or 90s. It's why I've given up on "high end" gaming rigs and now use a Skull Canyon NUC (and a Wii U, Nintendo still has the touch).

schoen 10y ago

> Our first (and Sierra’s first) Producer, Guruka Singh Khalsa, taught us the “Ken Williams Rule” based on something Robert Heinlein wrote: “That which he tells you three times is true.” Originally written by Lewis Carroll: "Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried, As he landed his crew with care; Supporting each man on the top of the tide By a finger entwined in his hair. "Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice: That alone should encourage the crew. Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice: What I tell you three times is true." (See also Appendix ל of the Illuminatus! Trilogy.)

dharma1 10y ago

Loved all the Sierra games, especially Hero's Quest. Any recommendations for PG (kids) for something similar today? Deus Ex seems good but not for under 10... I really loved the fantasy world, the interactive story telling, and the challenges of the Quest for Glory series. Would pay good money for a hand painted, well crafted, modern point and click with an immersive story like this. The 8bit EGA/VGA stuff brings back warm memories but I don't think that's the thing that made it magical for me.

danso 10y ago
Apparently Heroine's Quest, a freeware game from 2014, is quite good https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/15/freeware-garden-heroines-quest/ https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/15/freeware-garden-...

Animats 10y ago

That's the pitch for Ubisoft's "Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon - Wasteland". There are several different ways to approach the battles. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdJub3Kz2wI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdJub3Kz2wI