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This is a fair point, but don't underestimate the value of getting something to market sooner rather than later, even for something like this. Look at it this

This is a fair point, but don't underestimate the value of getting something to market sooner rather than later, even for something like this. Look at it this way: would you rather wait for five 9s against getting in a collision of any kind, in a car you won't be able to buy for another 25 years ... or settle for four 9s, and take delivery by christmas? I don't know enough about the odds or the effect vs speed to comment with any confidence about whether Cruise's autonomous driving system fits this pattern or not, but I too often see a knee-jerk "slower and safer is always better when LIVES are on the line!" reaction, and I think it's worth being careful about whether it actually does make for a safer world.

nfriedly 10y ago
To add perspective, the interim solution (driving yourself) is probably closer to three 9s. So it's a choice between a big improvement soon, or an even bigger improvement later.
- jayjay71 10y ago
  This is false, and one of the reasons Tesla got a lot of deserved criticism over the death that occurred from using their autopilot system. So far, all of the data (which is limited, so it's far from conclusive) points towards self-driving technology being deadlier than manual driving. This is not a condemnation of technology augmenting driving. ABS is clearly a win, airbags were once controversial, and even seat belts were once considered questionable. The technology will likely improve, but it isn't there yet and believing that it is can quite literally kill you.
  - nfriedly 10y ago
    I'll grant you that there are situations as you describe, where people lean too heavily on the current technology and die as a result. However, I believe that there are more situations where the technology works as intended, preventing mistakes and saving lives. So, until there is clear data to the contrary, I'm sticking my original assertion that current-gen augmented driving technology improves safety.
Fricken 10y ago
With all the jockeying for position we've seen in the vehicle automation space the past couple years, one thing that's become clear is that both SV and Detroit have a lot to learn about the other guys home turf, and they've both humbled themselves with respects to what they can and can't do well.
dilemma 10y ago
This is a false dichotomy and just not representative of reality. There can never be self-driving cars because the type of generalized intelligence that would be required is impossible to achieve. The fact remains that a computer program can only do what it is told, it cannot think. Code has no mind. So what the choice is between is, instead, someone (Tesla) pushing out a falsely marketed support system that does none of the things it is believe to be able to, and causes unnecessary deaths and injuries. And, on the other hand, thorough testing to uncover the possibilities and limits of the technology, to produce a reliable, usable product.
- jayjay71 10y ago
  This is a little simplistic. Computers can do things they aren't heuristically programmed to do - that's the basic idea behind machine learning. I've seen some incredibly impressive robots that ran entirely on neural nets and never failed, but because it was impossible to understand how they worked they could only be used for demonstration purposes as guaranteeing safety was impossible. What you seem to be referring to is true AI. I agree we are nowhere close to anything resembling true AI, but I do believe something representative of a computer that can "think" will appear in the coming decades. That said, you can program a car heuristically. Statistically speaking, the unknown unknowns are so rare that assuming it doesn't fail under expected conditions you can guarantee it to be safer than humans. The unknown unknowns are not the problem right now, it's just dealing with limited sensor input (cars have a hard time "seeing" what's around them) and making sense of the world around it.
  - atroyn 10y ago
    There is a considerable ongoing research effort in formal verification of learned systems. Once an ML system has been trained, it becomes deterministic and can be tested.
    - jayjay71 10y ago
      That sounds neat. Can you link me to a paper?
mdorazio 10y ago
I would gladly take any number of 9s better than driving myself, but the problem is we're seeing products like Autopilot rushed to market that aren't there. I personally think Google is doing the best job of building a comprehensive system that can reliably replace drivers, and most other players are rushing to try and put something on the road. There's a happy medium where autonomous cars are significantly better than human drivers and still released sometime in the near future, and I'll wait the extra couple of years for a system that is proven safe instead of clamoring for one to be available tomorrow.

nfriedly 10y ago

To add perspective, the interim solution (driving yourself) is probably closer to three 9s. So it's a choice between a big improvement soon, or an even bigger improvement later.

jayjay71 10y ago
This is false, and one of the reasons Tesla got a lot of deserved criticism over the death that occurred from using their autopilot system. So far, all of the data (which is limited, so it's far from conclusive) points towards self-driving technology being deadlier than manual driving. This is not a condemnation of technology augmenting driving. ABS is clearly a win, airbags were once controversial, and even seat belts were once considered questionable. The technology will likely improve, but it isn't there yet and believing that it is can quite literally kill you.
- nfriedly 10y ago
  I'll grant you that there are situations as you describe, where people lean too heavily on the current technology and die as a result. However, I believe that there are more situations where the technology works as intended, preventing mistakes and saving lives. So, until there is clear data to the contrary, I'm sticking my original assertion that current-gen augmented driving technology improves safety.

Fricken 10y ago

With all the jockeying for position we've seen in the vehicle automation space the past couple years, one thing that's become clear is that both SV and Detroit have a lot to learn about the other guys home turf, and they've both humbled themselves with respects to what they can and can't do well.

dilemma 10y ago

This is a false dichotomy and just not representative of reality. There can never be self-driving cars because the type of generalized intelligence that would be required is impossible to achieve. The fact remains that a computer program can only do what it is told, it cannot think. Code has no mind. So what the choice is between is, instead, someone (Tesla) pushing out a falsely marketed support system that does none of the things it is believe to be able to, and causes unnecessary deaths and injuries. And, on the other hand, thorough testing to uncover the possibilities and limits of the technology, to produce a reliable, usable product.

jayjay71 10y ago
This is a little simplistic. Computers can do things they aren't heuristically programmed to do - that's the basic idea behind machine learning. I've seen some incredibly impressive robots that ran entirely on neural nets and never failed, but because it was impossible to understand how they worked they could only be used for demonstration purposes as guaranteeing safety was impossible. What you seem to be referring to is true AI. I agree we are nowhere close to anything resembling true AI, but I do believe something representative of a computer that can "think" will appear in the coming decades. That said, you can program a car heuristically. Statistically speaking, the unknown unknowns are so rare that assuming it doesn't fail under expected conditions you can guarantee it to be safer than humans. The unknown unknowns are not the problem right now, it's just dealing with limited sensor input (cars have a hard time "seeing" what's around them) and making sense of the world around it.
- atroyn 10y ago
  There is a considerable ongoing research effort in formal verification of learned systems. Once an ML system has been trained, it becomes deterministic and can be tested.
  - jayjay71 10y ago
    That sounds neat. Can you link me to a paper?

mdorazio 10y ago

I would gladly take any number of 9s better than driving myself, but the problem is we're seeing products like Autopilot rushed to market that aren't there. I personally think Google is doing the best job of building a comprehensive system that can reliably replace drivers, and most other players are rushing to try and put something on the road. There's a happy medium where autonomous cars are significantly better than human drivers and still released sometime in the near future, and I'll wait the extra couple of years for a system that is proven safe instead of clamoring for one to be available tomorrow.