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> It's pretty hypocritical to attempt to stop what you think is bigotry and exclusion by doing the exact same thing to the people you don't like. Fighting bigo

by serge2k 10y ago

> It's pretty hypocritical to attempt to stop what you think is bigotry and exclusion by doing the exact same thing to the people you don't like. Fighting bigotry and exclusion by refusing to do business with people and calling them out for it is absolutely reasonable. That said, it's a grey area. Eich getting forced out still leaves an unpleasant feeling with me. Sure, I think the argument of "marriage is between a man and a woman" is just complete trash, and he advocated for some form of that, but that issue does at least have a spectrum to it (marriage for all!, marriage for men + woman but something equivalent for gays, no marriage for gays, gays are abominations).

dogma1138 10y ago
>Fighting bigotry and exclusion by refusing to do business with people and calling them out for it is absolutely reasonable. No this is not reasonable in any way shape or form, this isn't fighting "bigotry" this is political prosecution regardless of how vile you might see their political views to be. Democracy works when anyone can express their political voice without suffering for it. When your political voice comes with a hefty price it is effectively thought control. P.S. It is pretty ironic that the "left" especially in the US forgot what it had endured https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/28/college-apologizes-professor-labeled-communist-fired-1962 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/28/college-apol...
- serge2k 10y ago
  I didn't say this was fighting bigotry, I said it's acceptable to refuse to do business with bigots and to call them out. > Democracy works when anyone can express their political voice without suffering for it. I wouldn't advocate for violence or oppression of political beliefs. It's entirely valid to refuse to remain idle in the face of bigotry. If someone opens a shop up and puts up a sign that says "No gays" then I consider it entirely reasonable for a bunch of gay men to stand outside protesting, organize a boycott, etc...
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    You should be able you express your own opposite political view in a proper manner, forcibly disturbing their business is not any different than some bigots doing the same to a black owned business. For the most part if some one puts a sign that says "no gays allowed" it should be handled through anti-discriminatory actions set by law. A proper action in this case would be to contact the authorities, write an opinion letter to a newspaper, organize a town meeting. That said there is a huge difference between individual political activity and involving groups and businesses. I don't understand how people can call themselves liberal and effectively DOX people all the time and try to get them fired because they expressed a specific political view. In this specific case I also find the fact that people claim that liking a post on twitter (a post in which BTW did not violate Twitter's own pretty strict anti-hate speech policy) is hate speech on its own to be quite disturbing, or amusing depending on your point of view. But overall boycotts should ideally never be used in proper political discourse, they are antithetical to democracy, a boycott is the refusal to conduct a dialog, to hear any opposing opinion and to discuss things in a proper manner. It is effectively the "grown up" version of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling nananananana I can't hear you. Overall "Trump" to some extent is the outcome of the current political climate, there are many liberals that still hold true liberal values that are scared shitless of what the left is doing, they look to the alt and see crazy nut jobs, the alt right has been dubbed as "closet racists", and the center is pretty much deserted. Partisanship and political extremism has pretty much taken over everything, and everything now is binary and almost bundled together if you don't support A+B+C you are X, and we hate X. I really wonder what happened to the ideal of free speech and appreciating the fact that you can be "offended" and having your opinions challenged as a healthy sign of living in a pluralistic and free society.
    - gd1 10y ago
      >I really wonder what happened to the ideal of free speech and appreciating the fact that you can be "offended" and having your opinions challenged as a healthy sign of living in a pluralistic and free society. It's dead
  - leereeves 10y ago

by serge2k 10y ago

dogma1138 10y ago

>Fighting bigotry and exclusion by refusing to do business with people and calling them out for it is absolutely reasonable. No this is not reasonable in any way shape or form, this isn't fighting "bigotry" this is political prosecution regardless of how vile you might see their political views to be. Democracy works when anyone can express their political voice without suffering for it. When your political voice comes with a hefty price it is effectively thought control. P.S. It is pretty ironic that the "left" especially in the US forgot what it had endured https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/28/college-apologizes-professor-labeled-communist-fired-1962 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/28/college-apol...

serge2k 10y ago
I didn't say this was fighting bigotry, I said it's acceptable to refuse to do business with bigots and to call them out. > Democracy works when anyone can express their political voice without suffering for it. I wouldn't advocate for violence or oppression of political beliefs. It's entirely valid to refuse to remain idle in the face of bigotry. If someone opens a shop up and puts up a sign that says "No gays" then I consider it entirely reasonable for a bunch of gay men to stand outside protesting, organize a boycott, etc...
- dogma1138 10y ago
  You should be able you express your own opposite political view in a proper manner, forcibly disturbing their business is not any different than some bigots doing the same to a black owned business. For the most part if some one puts a sign that says "no gays allowed" it should be handled through anti-discriminatory actions set by law. A proper action in this case would be to contact the authorities, write an opinion letter to a newspaper, organize a town meeting. That said there is a huge difference between individual political activity and involving groups and businesses. I don't understand how people can call themselves liberal and effectively DOX people all the time and try to get them fired because they expressed a specific political view. In this specific case I also find the fact that people claim that liking a post on twitter (a post in which BTW did not violate Twitter's own pretty strict anti-hate speech policy) is hate speech on its own to be quite disturbing, or amusing depending on your point of view. But overall boycotts should ideally never be used in proper political discourse, they are antithetical to democracy, a boycott is the refusal to conduct a dialog, to hear any opposing opinion and to discuss things in a proper manner. It is effectively the "grown up" version of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling nananananana I can't hear you. Overall "Trump" to some extent is the outcome of the current political climate, there are many liberals that still hold true liberal values that are scared shitless of what the left is doing, they look to the alt and see crazy nut jobs, the alt right has been dubbed as "closet racists", and the center is pretty much deserted. Partisanship and political extremism has pretty much taken over everything, and everything now is binary and almost bundled together if you don't support A+B+C you are X, and we hate X. I really wonder what happened to the ideal of free speech and appreciating the fact that you can be "offended" and having your opinions challenged as a healthy sign of living in a pluralistic and free society.
  - gd1 10y ago
    >I really wonder what happened to the ideal of free speech and appreciating the fact that you can be "offended" and having your opinions challenged as a healthy sign of living in a pluralistic and free society. It's dead
- leereeves 10y ago